Re: [VV] Gate Defense

Rrok Anroll wrote:

>Well here's my bit for the Gate Defense discussion...
>
>    First there's the logistics. If all I have to do is worry about the
>spot I'm in, then I can load up on firepower and armor/shields because
>I don't have to worry about spending money on moving things around.

If you only have one single "gate" to defend, this works fine. (BTW,
let's 
call them "warp points" instead since that's what they are :-) )

However, if you have two or more warp points to defend the defender runs

into problems. Simply put, if A and B have the same build capacity and A

has two possible avenues of attack, then B must defend *both* of them - 
which makes it quite likely that B will be outgunned at the point of
attack 
when the attack finally comes. Probably not by 2:1, since A not only has
to 
invest in engines but also needs some sort of screening force at the
other 
warp point, but still by a fairly respectable margin. The more avenues
of 
attack there are, the worse the defenders' problems become.

>Now for the intelligence side in reference to what I'm facing. If I'm 
>simply defending the spot I'm in, then I'll probably have a few pickets
on 
>the other side of my gate. Nothing much really, probably a small
station 
>closest to the gate, and a few picket ships roaming some
>distance from the station. Since I'm only worried about one spot
though, 
>it's not like my picket line has to roam the neighboring system, they
just 
>need to be far enough out to be able to warm the watch station in time.

>This gives me an opportunity to get a snapshot
>of what's going to try and get through the gate to my side.

No, it doesn't. All you get is a snapshot of the attacker's *vanguard* -

which will typically be just strong enough to drive in or destroy your 
pickets, and nothing more. The real attack force won't move up against
the 
warp point until your picket has already been destroyed. Without
pickets, 
the defenders don't know if there'll be an attack at all - so how long
can 
they remain at combat alert before they have to stand down at least some
of 
their forces and let the crews rest?

Of course this requires the attackers to send out a vanguard force - but

once the defenders' pickets have been removed, *neither* side knows
exactly 
what the other has available unless they send ships through the warp
point 
to take a look. Then again, unless there's only one single avenue of
attack 
the "vanguard" force might be nothing but a feint - with several
different 
attack routes available, a typical offensive will probably start with
the 
attackers driving in the defenders' pickets in several different systems

more or less simultanously, and then pause for a while before the real 
attack goes in :-/

>The only way that I could possibly be able to move in without the enemy

>picket line, again, if it is indeed there, being able to warn of my 
>approach would be to jump in-system, litterally on top of the picket
line, 
>and wipe them out instantly. This of course requires that my weapons
were 
>warmed up and ready to fire, and targetting solutions were >acurately< 
>plotted before the jump; that the point I come in at is >exactly< where
I 
>intended to be; and that the transition from FTL is instantaneous with
the 
>crew suffering no effects from transittioning....

Provided that you *can* "jump in-system" without using the warp point,
of 
course - otherwise you're merely describing the opening stages in the
warp 
point assault proper. However, as I described above the attackers don't 
*need* to avoid the pickets since they won't see the entire attacking
force 
anyway.

>If I'm defending the gate, the first thing I'm going to do is to define
>a coridor leading from the gate, and it won't be towards the heart of
>the system, instead it would lead to the side somewhere. Around the
>corridor I would place layered minefields in groups. First around the
>gate would be a layered minefield, as some of the mines were detinated,
>other mines behind would thruster into place to fill the gaps. At the
>end of the first minefield would be my first set of defensive
>platforms. Hollowed out asteroids, filled with gun batteries, PDS
>arrays, and even some EW suites.

That's nice. Means that there are lots of targets for attacking AMT 
warheads to wipe out - they don't need any precise targetting, after all
<g>

BTW, how long ranges do the weapons on your defence platforms have? If 
they're long-ranged enough that they can hit attacking ships effectively

from outside the attackers' own weapons range, then they'll not only be 
huge but also hugely expensive. If they're short-ranged, they'll have to
be 
deployed close to the warp point - which makes them vulnerable to the 
enemy's return fire.

Either way, if you've deployed all your platforms to protect the
corridor 
it won't take much of a minefield breach in the opposite direction to
allow 
the attacking ships to move away from them! If you want to be
(reasonably) 
sure that (some of) your platforms will be able to keep the attacking
ships 
under fire for any serious amount of time, you either need to deploy 
platforms all around the warp point or you need to deploy long-ranged 
platforms very close to the warp point... which of course makes them
very 
vulnerable to the attackers' weapons.

>A few of the platforms would have sensor/comm suites to relay
information 
>about what's coming through the gate. After that I'd have one more 
>minefield, and my final ring of
>platforms, and then the actual gate defense platform. The final
platform 
>would be larger, containing more batteries and PDS arrays and EW
suites, 
>everything pointed straight down the corridor.

With this set-up, the "final" platform will almost certainly  be too far

from the warp point to be of much use. If the attackers can breach the 
minefields they won't go anywhere near it; and if the attackers *can't* 
breach the minefield so they'd have to go up the corridor (and thus get 
close to the "final" platform) it would be much cheaper for the
defenders 
to use some more mines to block the corridor as well - you did describe 
your mines as being slightly mobile, so it wouldn't be too hard to
unblock 
it again if you need to.

>A little further in system is where I'd place a station with a moderate
>defense fleet. The majority of this fleet would probably be mainly
>frigates and cruisers, system defense ships.
>If I'm attackning a system, even assuming I managed to take out any
>advanced warning system, I'm still probably not going to know what's in
>the system, so my first launch would be scouts and recon drones.

Or you make an educated guess and attack anyway - after all you're no
worse 
off with an educated guess than you'd be if your recon probe fails, and
you 
haven't wasted any resources on dead recon units :-/

>Assuming they actually come back with data on the defenses, I'm going
>to have to finalize my attack based on that data, which of course gives
>my opponent time to mobilize his defenses...

...and then *keep* them mobilized indefinitely, waiting for an attack
which 
might or might not appear... :-)

>Now, let's assume my drones come back depicting the defensive setup I
>mentioned. My initial milssle salvos would have to be specifically
>targetted to the minefield first. The corridor would probably be
>defined for starships. I doubt my missle salvos are really going to
>attract the attention of the mines, so even is my salvos get through
>the fire from the defense platforms and manage to disable a few of
>them, my ships would still have to contend with the unmolested
>minefield. So I have to attack that first.

No, you don't *have* to attack the mines first. If the mines don't
attack 
your missiles, there is in fact *no* need for the missiles to attack the

mines immediately - you can just as easily concentrate on the defensive 
platforms first (eg. to knock out the systems that control the minefield

redeployments) and use later missile waves to deal with the minefields.
It 
all depends on how many missiles you have available.

>Then I have to take out the defense platforms,

Not all of them, particularly not if they're positioned the way you 
specified - you positioned the defence platforms to cover the
*corridor*, 
but if the mines are gone (which as I noted above they don't have to be,

but let's say they are) the attacking ships don't need to move through
your 
prepared corridor at all. They can move in any other direction they
like, 
eg. directly in-system to attack the moderate mobile defences directly
:-/

>Add to this the fact that if I haven't expended my supply of salvo
missles 
>on the
>minefields and defense platforms, I've probably ripped through a good
>part of it, probably at least half or more.

Says who?

>So at this point I'm pretty much to my beam weapons... going up against
an 
>attacker who may very well >still< have about as many missle salvos as
I 
>started out with.

Provided that the defenders aren't badly outnumbered from the start, of 
course. Which they might very well be, particularly if they've had to
build 
defences this massive in more than once place while the attackers 
concentrated most of their ships and missiles into one single assault
force :-)

>Now if I had a fleet of system defense ships. instead of the
>aforementioned gate defense system.... First off I'd have to hold off
>until the attack came through the gate. If they sent salvo after salvo,
>my ships would be at the mercy of the missle salvos.

Your ships would be considerably *less* at the mercy of the attackers' 
missile salvoes - because unlike the fixed minefields and defence 
platforms, the system defence ships can run away and let the missiles 
expend themselves on nothing. If the attacker manages to get recon data
on 
the defences, mobile ships can also reposition themselves make said
probe 
data invalid pretty much immediately; it takes *much* longer to
reposition 
minefields and immobile stations.

>Then when the fleet came through, whatever remained of my fleet would
be 
>at the mercy
>of the invaders.. my defenses would have burned out rather quickly.

Why? You put a small squadron on the warp point - large enough to deal
with 
scout probes, nothing bigger - and you'll most likely lose it when the 
attackers' missiles start coming through... but that leaves 90% or more
of 
your fleet intact since the rest of the missiles expended themselves for
no 
effect.

>The other thing to consider is that >if< I do create a system defense
>fleet large enough to repel the incoming invasion fleet, that's one
>more fleet of ships that I don't have out there defending my shipping
>lanes, other systems, or generally doing what they can to whittle down
>the incoming enemy fleet.

But if you create an immobile warp point defence force large enough to 
repel the incoming invasion fleet, that's *also* one more fleet of ships

that you don't have out there. You seem to base your argument on an 
unstated assumption that your massive minefields and defence stations
are 
very cheap compared to the mobile system defence ships - but if they're 
massive enough to stop the enemy, they won't be cheap at all.

All in all, I fully agree with Grant: if it is possible to send
automated 
weapons through a warp point (or even cyborg weapons - eg., I very much 
doubt that humans would have any serious qualms about tying a rat or
even 
chimp brain into a missile pod if it was necessary to get the pod
through 
the warp point), then fixed defences are effectively reduced to
tripwires.

Of course, there already is a game which studies this kind of warp point

assaults in detail. The VVerse would probably be better off not
emulating 
StarFire :-/

Later,

Oerjan
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
-Hen3ry