Re: [VV] Vectorverse FTL

At 12:48 PM -0500 2/1/05, Grant A. Ladue wrote:
>
>    See, this is my point.  Unless there is something that prevents it,
I
>  *never* send ships through.	Hell, I don't even leave ships near the
other
>  end of the wormhole.  I just ballistically launch massive missile
strikes
>  through the gate from long distances away.  I don't pay for
hulls/engines/
>  crews that are put at risk *at all*.  Just far cheaper missiles.

Can I send 100 fighter groups through the gate to the other side?

Can I have 100 fighter groups sitting on this side with PDS and ADF 
to intercept the missiles?

>     Ho ho.  Once we're nuke free, you're toast.  You have no chance of
nuking
>   all the possible launch point in the Atlantic from which you'll be
attacked.

Think of the weapons ranges. You have a fixed area to launch from and 
I can find you with land based aircraft that have a longer range than 
your ship based aircraft. I'm going to try to find you before you get 
to your launch point.

If we're talking the US hitting Syria then sure, Syria's toast even 
with it's land based aircraft. But if you're a US Carrier battle 
group trying to get close to launch a strike against a Soviet North 
Sea base that has a Flock of Bears and Backfires...good luck. You'll 
run into that odd Badger Maritime recon craft with at least your E-2 
and F-14s long before you're in weapons range and then you'll start 
to see the odd badger and bear in greater numbers before your scope 
fills with Hopefully a bunch of bears or if less lucky a bunch of 
kingfishers.

If you're just Nuke free and can do so, sure, an ICBM can be 
launched, but that's outside the scope of what we're talking about.

>   This is directly analogous to the wormhole situation.  The other guy
can
>   launch his nuke strike from *anywhere* on the other side of the
wormhole and
>   you don't see it till it comes through.

What stops me from sending short range forces through the wormhole to 
run interference? Does the Wormhole allow non FTL forces through? 
like Fighters or system defense ships?

>  If you have sensors/ships on the
>   other side to observe the strike, then I strike those pieces first
and we're
>   back to the first step.  If you don't see the nukes until they're
almost on
>   top of you, then you don't really have a chance to stop them. 
>Worst case for
>   the attacker is that they set off some of the nukes further away
from your
>   defenses (Gibraltar) to kill your sensors, and "walk" them in on
you.

Sensors can be replaced. How do you hide from all of my sensors? Even 
if I have a couple of SSK's you're still going to pay in blood to get 
close and land your marines.

>Quite
>   frankly, you don't have a chance unless you have a large fleet out
there
>   contesting the Atlantic, and if you have a large fleet out there,
then you
>   don't *need* large defenses at Gibraltar.  Then the scenario is the
fleet to
>   fleet battles in the ocean, and that was what I was saying.

It pays to defend such a point well. In the case of WWII Germany and 
Italy couldn't begin to afford to think about forcing Gibratar short 
of a major campaign. Even if they hit it from both sides and doing so 
would have left them so weak that Britain's remaining mobile assets 
would have made short work.

>     Which is why the military lobs hand grenades through the door
first.	Your
>   scenarios are all applicable if one side is forced to send bodies
through

And that's where theres usually a door with a long hallway and a 
portal at the end of the hall for a Machine gun to fire down the 
hall. If you built your bunker properly. ;-) Sure, you can chuck a 
grenade down the hall, but so can I. And I have the benefit of near 
total cover.

A wooden room is not a prepared defense.

>   door instead, but that isn't *necessarily* the case.  There are ways
to
>   constrain the situation such that fixed defenses are essentially 
>impregnable,

It depends on how much prep both sides take.

>   but for a lot of the wormhole/gate situations stipulated in SF,
those
>   contraints aren't there.  For others there are.

Which is where context really comes in.
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