Re: [DS] Getting back to the game RE: Engineers

At 9:50 AM +1000 7/9/04, <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:

>What it comes down to is, what's a fair amount of capacity to require
in
>order for a repair vehicle to be able to make field repairs throughout
one
>game?

Given that you can in RL have a dude in a CUCV 
help fix some basic electrical/electronic 
problems on a large class 3 sized tank (abrams) 
it seems reasonable to have different ARV 
packages on different sized vehicles work in most 
cases. Given how nebulous the repair problems 
are...PSB it, and be reasonable.

I see no problem with a class 1 Recovery vehicle 
rolling-up and helping fix a problem than with a 
class 3 Armored Recovery vehicle rolling up and 
doing the same thing. Difference is, I'd allow 
the Class 3 to tow another class 3 vehicle back 
to a rear area to get it out of the FEBA.

>  >>True, but in game terms, unless you want to 
>add rules that tie the amount of
>>>excavation work a vehicle can do in a turn to the size of its
equipment,
>>>it's easier to just come up with one standard-capacity package for
>>>excavation.
>>
>>Depends.
>
>Upon what?

Well, it's reasonable to expect that a Class 5 
Excavator can move more dirt in a turn with it's 
blade than a class 1 excavator can.

A Cat D9 (class 4?) is going to move more dirt 
per unit time than a WWII Airborne Bulldozer.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/vfe/vfe3.htm

>  >A Blade is easy to tack on. The Abrams
>>can carry a blade no problem. ITs the bigger
>>stuff that costs more space. Screw auger,
>>backhoe, front end loader, etc.
>
>And those are the ones that are necessary to create all the
emplacements for
>an entire unit.

To a precise degree, so I guess its a question. 
Blade allows scrapes for that size. AEV kit 
allows scrapes and emplacements that size and 
smaller in fractions for infantry and smaller 
vehicles. Plus clearing of obstacles.

>And again, how much work could such a configuration do within the
course of
>one game term?  Sure, there are varying sizes of enginnering equipment,
that
>can do varying amounts of work in a given time, but that's a bit too
>fine-grained for DS.

I agree, I figure that the basic game terms of 1 vehicle size per unit
turn.
Thus a Class 3 can move 3 classes worth of dirt 
per turn. Easy to PSB, easy to track. And you 
could combine several units to get a bigger 
position. Two Class 3's  dig a placement for a 
class 6 super heavy in a turn.

>So now I have to calculate 80% of the vehicle, apply that capacity to
the
>vehicle, then remember that it can create 4 scrapes for vehicles of the
same
>class?  What about cross-class?  How many class 2 scrapes can a class 4
>vehicle dig in a turn?  How many class 5 can a class 1 vehicle?  What
about
>infantry cover?  In the end, isn't is simpler to say "Engineering
excavation
>gear takes up x amount of capacity, and a vehicle with said gear can
prepare
>Y emplacements of any class (including for infantry elements) per game
>turn"?

I think we've been talking past each other mostly...

Class of vehicle. Buy the AEV package as a 
percentage of vehicle size. Calculate other basic 
stuff. And Bob's yer uncle.

>Ugh.  I still think that's getting too complicated.  And the obstacles
--
>what about reinforced obstacles, not piddly earthen berms?  Should a
blade
>clear those?	What about pop-up mines?  Will they still jump when
disrupted
>by the blade, and will that pose a threat to the vehicle? Again,
separate
>the excavation, mine clearing, and demolition functions, but
standardize
>each.

Assume that the AEV forces have basic 
countermeasures for those types of installations. 
Its Dirtside not Twilight 2000.

AEVs to clear minefields. Something with a dozer blade to 'just' dig a
scrape.

>Really sort range is still ranged, and that means "Farther than
ajacent."
>In addition, ask Mr atkinson if a Demo gun could be used against
infantry.
>So the rules do seem more geared towards replicating the effect of 
placed
>demo charges as opposed to a gun.  And in game terms, for clearing
buildings
>and obstacles, given the rules, I'd rather have a DFFG than an
engineering
>package.

Hmm, quite a difference in range between that 
165mm demo gun (63 pounds 2400 yards) and the 
AVRE Petard of WWII (40 pounds 150 yards).

Ok, so I've changed scope here...Hmm. Intersting 
thinking. I think we need a demo gun....I was 
thinking of the Petard of WWII as really 
short/adjacent....
>
>
>I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THAT'S MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The
problem
>is, if you don't assign a specific capacity to the equipment, you'll
run
>into trouble with two types of players:
>
>1.  Cheeseheads who will do just what I warned of above.
>2.  Honest players who don't want to engage in such Stiltonesque
practices,
>but can't agree on the degree by which such a package will reduce the
>capacity of the vehicle.

Thats why I figure a significant percentage of 
basic vehicle capacity would prevent cheese. 
You've only got 20% left to do anything with. 
Your AEV is going to be mainly one mission. Not 3 
mission (APC/AEV/Air Defense).

>In the end, it just seems a lot simpler to assign a specific capacity
to the
>different functions?

The problem is that they don't scale. How do you 
assign weights to such things? The US idea of an 
AEV differs from a British or German idea of an 
AEV. Both tend to be on the same scale, but the 
European versions tend to have augers/big arsed 
backhoes/clamshell excavators and a blade and we 
tend to just have a big blade here in the US.

>So if you assume 4 capacity for the crews being rescued (that's equal
to an
>infantry element) and one extra APSW, that's a heck of a lot of
capacity
>being taken up by the recovery & towing gear, especially if you allow
it to
>only tow smaller vehicles.  That's 5 capacity to tow a class 1, 10 to
tow a
>class 2 or smaller, 15 for a class 3 or smaller, etc.... in essence,
(Class
>towed x 5).  That's what I proposed, IIRC.

Well in the case of the M88, you can cram some 
crew in there if need be, as I understand it... I 
suppose your idea works however...So there ya go.

>Again, the problem with a sliding scale of capacity means a sliding
scale of
>capability.  I'd prefer a fixed capacity, and a fixed capability.   By
>giving separate capacities for excavation, demolition, recovery, and
mine
>clearing, you can equip a vehicle with all or some of those cpabilities
as
>the player sees fit.

True, but then I worry that it drives back to the 
issue you were worried about before...the 
jagdtransportbergflakpanzer cheese vehicle.

But perhaps we're really saying the same thing.

I'm thinking that a given size of whole (not 
portions) vehicle with the 'package' would be a 
given cost incremental with size (as sliding).

Rather than assigning capabilities in discreet 
forms, sorry your AEV doesn't have the clamshell 
so it can't dig infantry positions...Digging can 
be accomplished with an auger, digging charges, 
'frikken laser beams'...etc.

Same thing with dozer blades. A blade would be a 
percentage of size of vehicle. It'd be kind of 
hard to have a class 1 dozer blade on a class 5 
vehicle...Which is where I worry that the fixed 
cost issue comes about. Percentage being sliding 
according to vehicle size....

I suspect we need to think about this and work 
out some vehicles as examples and our ideas of 
how they work. I'm happy with the current rules 
because I think they work rather intuitively.
-- 
--
Ryan Gill	       rmgill@SPAMmindspring.com
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