NBC Warfare

Welcome Hendrix! Swedes are welcome in the Tuffleyverse.... :)

You said:

I have been pondering this sort of question (how to simulate NBC attacks
in
games) ever since I spent my military service learning and teaching NBC
survival. And, yes, I have worn NBC gear in cold climate (-15 C, about 5
F, I
think), though not for more than a couple of hours, thank God! (The
pseudo-mustard gas we were supposed to practice decontamination with had

frozen.)

** I raised just this point with Beth Fulton today. Chem and bio agents
used in cold climates may perform vastly differently - things freeze,
reactions happen differently, bugs die, etc. I'm thinking that just
might help offset the awful combo of cold weather and NBC gear.

I think most of the effects, in SGII, have to do with the scenario
construction
rather than on-table game mechanics. I'm thinking in lines of starting
fatigue
and confidence, and how long you can stay suited up before filters and
batteries
have to be changed, etc. Possibly some older gear would lower the
mobility to
encumbered (4"), but that seems pretty harsh. My experience is that you
can move
quite normally, even run short stretches, for at least a couple of
hours.

** I'd agree with your comments in general, except the last - your
comments about SG2 setup make lots of sense. I found in 30+C temps, when
I threw on the charcoal lined chemsuit, hood, gloves, mask, etc then
ended up running - it didn't take very long to be a bucket of sweat and
have great unhappiness. In fact, if it were moderately chilly, I think
that would be an improvement. Heat and NBC gear are bad. NBC gear is a
spring/fall type of kit. Winter or Summer bbth disagree based on
different problems.

Thomas.Barclay wrote:
- ----Snip-----

>	  3) Combat - combat effectiveness is hampered (at least IME) by

> fighting at high protective states - dexterity is shot, you fatigue
easier,
> tis hard to use optics with some helmets, most masks, and I'm sure a
vacc suit
> barring an internal HUD. And most of these kit items may make taking
up some
> firing postures more difficult or lead to a requirement to be more
exposed
> (heck, it might be impossible to fire prone in a vacc suit period).

Why couldn't you have a HUD in a vacc suit,

** You could. But are my neck joints flexible? For example, in today's
vacc suit, I doubt I could lie down and fire along the ground or it'd
sure be a rotten bugger of a trick. Now, 2183 Vacc Suits may be
different.... but there are reasons our suits are bulky that might be
hard to change (like the size of the air tanks). If not, maybe only
obsolete gear without a HUD or bulky in nature have these penalties.

I'd think any visored helmet would
do just great, or am I missing something?

** Ever shot through sights through a gas mask? I assume so. But did you
do it on a weapon with optics? For me anyway, I found sights (optics)
plus a mask equalled less effective and accurate fire. Maybe not
significantly so... but somewhat.

Assuming we are talking about military
gear I would suppose that it is suitable for fighting in (barring
administrative
fuckups, of course),

** Like ours is today? If people can argue that Basic tech in 2183 is
actually today-basic, then we should at least consider that NBC gear and
other similar gear might still encumber. Of course, I'm open to the
thought it does not. Just wanted to explore options.

or at least that the effects are so minimal, and would
affect both sides more or less equally, that they can be ignored. (But
see Joe
Haldemans Forever War for some interestin effects of vacc suit fighting
in near
absolute zero degrees environment.)

** Hmm, I still think there would be a difference between fighting
buttoned up and not, but it is probably admittedly far less than the
modern day equivalent.

>	  4) Morale - no one likes to fight in these states - it beats
being
> dead, but no one likes it. Especially if it goes on for a while (heck,
the
> decontam procedure for taking a visit to the loo is pretty frustrating
in and
> of itself).

Absolutely, I really like the Dirtside rules for NBC attacks where _all_
units
on the table have to take confidence tests. How about a reaction test to
enter a
contaminated area? (Are you _really_ sure your mask fits properly?)

** And has the enemy dropped a suit-eating nanite in the area?
Hmmm......

> But is should there be penalties for fighting "buttoned up"? Should
vacc suit
> users suffer penalties to ranged fire? movement?

I would say no, otherwise we'd have to impose penalties on troops in
"unpowered"
full BA like NSL Panzergrenadiers as well.

** Assumption: Those suits are unpowered. I've seen a number of folk
suggest they are partially powered and for my Luftelandesturm, I sort of
assume that too. Not fully powered, just partially powered to help
compensate for the weight. Otherwise, yes I'd be tempted to penalize
them - they get heavy armour... but there ought to be a trade off.

 Or possibly light troops not
adequately equipped should get some penalties, but I think that should
be an
exception.

** Benefits you mean. At least as far as fatigue, encumberance, and
movement go and some parts of fighting. Though mind you the gas attacks
or even the bullet attacks if you shuck the armour tend to be far more
lethal...

My brain starts working on some scenario where soldiers get caught
out not expecting chemical warfare and only carrying obsolete protection

gear....hm.

But what happens if a vacc suit is punctured? That would naturally
depend on
what is out there, but in extreme cases perhaps all wounds would be
kills.

** I think this is the secret to hostile environments. Every hit is a
black skull.

And how to simulate a chemical attack? A reaction test for each figure
caught in
it,

** Assuming they even detected it.... if you were buttoned up you might
not even know. (Now yes, if you were careful and watched your detectors
or chemical indicators, you'd know....). Though dropping chem that would
fool the sensors might be a nasty trick too. Real stuff that won't be
detectable or fake stuff that is and forces everyone to a high MOPP
level...

shift down the die if not at all prepered (you can usually fit at least
two
coke or beer cans where your gas mask should be),

** Or better yet, chuck the damn carrier and get rid of one more piece
of kit. Plus if we talk about the future, figure gas mask = useless. I
think they'd have gone to skin absorbed agents where any exposure is
lethal. MAKE your enemy use the full MOPP suit if you're going to play
that game. Doubly true if he only has gas masks.

shift down one step if tired
or exhausted, shift up two steps if in full BA? What happens if you
miss,
automatically dead if the units next action is not a reorganize
(remember to
take the right autoinjector)? I'm just rambling here, hope that's ok.

** My ideas: (Similarly rambling)
1) Both sides fighting high MOPP level: ignore it, everyone suffers
equally as far as encumberance, effects, etc. If attacked with Chem
weapons, roll quality of MOPP kit vs qualty of agent. If agent wins, but
does not double the defence die, wound results. Otherwise, death. If the
unit is unprepared, roll D4 for defender. Both sides may start Fatigued
if this fight has been going on for a while. If an unprepared unit is
attacked, after attack resolution, it is considered prepared. Similarly,
if you enter a contaminated area, consider this a chemical attack with a
one negative die shift in effectiveness. This method also represents the
presence of active nanites or whatever in chemical attacks such that
higher quality chem attacks have a likelikhood of compromising
protection that would normally totally thwart chem attacks.

2) One side fighting high MOPP, the other lightly equipped or
unequipped: Give the un-MOPPed guys an extra die shift in their movement
rate - relatively speaking, they'll be more spry. Have them fatigue
slower. (This assumes you still think fighting like this is not a good
thing - if you think you have suits that can selectively breathe, that
are light, and masks that don't impede your ability to shoot at all then
by all means apply no penalties other than the tendency for the
unequipped side to die from chemical attacks).