Re: Medtech a la Los

>G'day Adrian,

And a good one to you, all the way down there in the warm sunny south,
from
we here in the cold, miserable north :)

>
>I do like the fact you've tried to figure out a way of dealing with an
SG
>clone force, I just have one problem (which I guess is a major problem
I'm
>having with this entire conversation) and that is why should the clones
>think of themselves as expendible? 
>

Well, first of all - deep down I don't really like the idea of clone
armies
very much.  As I said in an earlier post, it just doesn't fit my
"aesthetic" view of the GZG universe.  But that aside, Los raised the
interesting point "they'd make great badguys!" - which I agree with.

Thinking of themselves as expendible?  Hmm.  If they are socialized with
a
moral structure that recognizes the idea of personal value and self
worth
as an individual, then expendibility/personal value would have some
meaning.  So don't let them socialize that way - starting from age zero.

Remember this human race of ours is the same one that convinced Iranian
children to walk into mine fields ahead of their troops, by promising
them
a quick trip to Paradise, etc...   I went to school with an Iranian guy
who
was a young man during the "Revolution", and he had a few (wouldn't talk
about it much) terrifying stories of this kind of thing happening.  We
make
jokes about sending human waves of troops into battle with enough rifles
for just the first rank (others to pick them up as the first ones go
down)
but that kind of thing REALLY HAPPENS...

Think about the assassin orphins in Romania.  Ceaucescu (sp?) and his
cronies arranged for "promising" orphins growing up in state run homes
to
be raised as assassins from early childhood, and to believe that they
were
born to be servants of the state, that killing for the state was a good
thing, etc etc etc.  Can you imagine the heck of a time Romania had
trying
to deal with these people after the "Communist" gov't was turfed out?

>These clones are genetically human in everyway, their production may
not
>be, but they are. We haven't figured out what it is that gives all
animals
>the desire to survive, but breeding a clone isn't going to remove it. I
'd
>say it was an odds on bet that your clone force would revolt, maybe not
the
>first time a group got left behind, but eventually. 

erm...	maybe.

but you keep them in small enough numbers to be manageable in groups,
and
don't let them communicate inter-group.  and if any rebel, you cash in
their entire unit (in a really ugly way) and show footage to all the
others, telling them how the rebels were "disloyal"....  etc. 
Propaganda,
brainwashing, controlled socialization, very limited communication, NO
knowledge of anything outside their immediate "community" etc etc etc

here's a wild thought.	how about not teaching them speech.  teach them
what they need to do on the battle field (remember, basic battle drills
guided by a "real" human staff) using compliance training - but don't
let
them develop the sophisticated communication abilities necessary to
discuss
things like rebelling amongst themselves.  Keep them away from
philosophical/moral concepts like "rights", "personal value",
"individuality", etc.  Keep them, as much as possible, from thinking in
those terms and talking to each other about it.  

If you have to provide them with some kind of moral framework, then give
them a very basic one that justifies the kind of behavior you want out
of
them.

>
>An immediate response to this point I guess would be the claim that
their
>"limited socialisation" has got that covered:
>a) they're not trained to expect more out of life, but in counterpoint
>neither were the Russian peasants, for instance, who were treated as
>virtual slaves for centuries but they certainly demanded change in a
rather
>spectacular fashion

um...  the Russian revolution (at least if I remember my history
correctly)
was conducted largely by urban dissidents - and not very many of them,
relatively speaking.  Remember - Marx wrote in England, and thought his
social model would fit the English industrial working class poor - the
VAST
peasant serfs "class" in Russia were not the breeding ground for a
proletariat revolution...  They didn't demand change (except, perhaps,
in
isolated incidents that were met with Pogrom)- they were swept along in
change that was started by an educated "elite" group of dissidents, who
had
largely spent a lot of time in Exile in other parts of Europe.

...but I get your point...

so you don't let the clone troopers develop enough knowledge to be able
to
compare their lives to something "better"... at least not at first.  And
maybe part of the "limited lifespan" of the clone armies (not just the
accellerated aging effects of the vat grown clones) is the eventual
development of enough social consciousness to start making this kind of
value comparison.  But that would take probably several campaigns - and
if
you were careful how you used the clone units, and gave them plenty of
reindoctrination in between actions, you might be able to prevent it for
a
while.	If any natural leaders appear who "espouse rebellion" you whack
them.  If any units rebel, you liquidate the whole bunch.  And when they
reach an "age" (really such level of experience acting together in a
"society" that they start to develop that kind of value judgement) then
you
declare the entire unit closed for business, and brew up another
bunch...

>b) they're not mentally developed enough to have such higher thoughts,
>these clones are grown flat out and there's no mental room for them to
>start to grasp the higher and abstract concepts which lead to
independent
>thoughts, but in counterpoint to this I'd have to say that they're
>obviouslly developed enough to take in basic field training, so they'd
be
>advanced enough to have thoughts of independence - any parent of a
child
>that's hit 2+ will tell you independent thoughts come early, tough
(loud,
>and often in the middle of supermarkets and toy sotores when the word
No is
>mentioned), but non-the-less early, much earlier then when they could
grasp
>battlefield drills.

Sure.  You don't want them to have NO concept of personal danger - or
they'd make useless soldiers.  They would have some idea of pain - using
pain compliance training would probably be a necessary part of their
upbringing.  Some sense of self-preservation would probably be required.
But it could be controlled, perhaps.   (I don't like this train of
thought
very much)

>
>Maybe it is my own distaste for the concept that is colouring my
thoughts
>here, but I really can't see a clone force as a viable longterm option,
>especially if they're considered and treated as expendibles. Oppression
>leads to revolution... eventually (OK maybe that's the in, SG clone
force
>is possible if its a recent starter as they haven't had time for the
winds
>of discontent to become gale force just yet).
>

Honestly, I have a real distaste for the concept also.	In the end I
don't
see how you could do it without resorting to some REALLY stomach turning
processes.  That's one of the reasons I won't see them much/at all in my
version of the GZGverse...  

Having said that, I wonder if given the right infrastructure and
political
commitment, a nation (of bad guys, obviously) might be able to do
something
like this.  It would make for a really high motivation to beat them,
that's
for sure.  I'd have very few moral qualms about fighting if they were
the
enemy...

..I'd rather not spend too much more time thinking about how to make it
work, though...

>Anyway just another 2 razoos worth ;)
>

I'll see your razoos and up it with my $0.02

Adrian

Adrian Johnson
ajohnson@idirect.com