Re: [GZG] Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi!

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Tailby spoke rashly and said:

GW (not unreasonably) insist on people using their models at an event
they
are running or sponsoring. No different to any other corporation.

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Sorry, but it is. Many corporations in fact produce games either
designed to
be used with whatever miniatures you want or at least open to the idea
that
you will supplement their official miniatures with others.

For instance, GZG sponsors the GZG-ECC convention each year. There, we
do
see a lot of GZG figures, but we also see pirate ships, star wars
miniatures, figures from other lines, renegade legion tanks, WW2
microarmour, etc. There is a strong GZG presence, but there are other
figures mixed in - in their own games using GZG rules (or modified
versions
of same) and in games with both GZG and other formations present.

This is QUITE a different stance from GW and there are a number of other
games companies who do the same thing. Sponsorship needs to encourage
business for it to be viable, but it only becomes a straightjacket in
the
hands of the 800 pound gorilla (ie GW).

My experiences of GW:

Pleasant folks in the stores. Nicely painted figures and they are
willing to
share some technique on figure painting and on terrain building. An
excellent book on terrain building was produced by these folks. Very
high
quality and high price for their miniatures.

But... laughable rules. I've seen versions of the rules where
bludgeoning
was better than shooting and where gunfire barely extended beyond a
turns
movement of space marines on foot. A distinct flavour for the silly
(argh).

Their most important shortcoming is the one that people have only
touched
upon:

Their business model. The GW business model *expects* a high rate of
player
turnover (as they find better games, grow up, or get driven off). Thus
their
churn in army lists and figure sculpts and rules is (given that
assumption)
not terribly problematic.

Rules exist as a vehicle to sell miniatures. Changing rules and changing
army lists justifies selling more miniatures. They don't change them to
make
the rules better (they'll say that, but who are we kidding?). They
change
the rules to sell more white metal and resin. That's their bread and
butter.

THAT isn't so much of an oddity - GZG is a miniatures company that
happens
to publish some rules to allow you to use their miniatures. Jon doesn't
make
$$$ selling rules AFAIK or at least darn few. The profits, such as they
are,
are in the resin and white metal products.

But you'll notice Jon doesn't churn out army lists to sell new
miniatures
(he does ADD new ships and throw up some sort of stats for them) but he
doesn't invalidate prior designs. Even FB1, which shifted the rules,
left an
easy path to support existing miniatures. THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF GW.
(That's emphasis not hostility)

I had a friend was a big Squat player, then they obliterated them. Nice.
No
salvage there. Any real good reason to do that? Nope. Except to sell
some
other different miniatures. Because, in my best gravelly Scotsman voice
"That's the GW Way!".

I buy GW products (terrain, books on modelling or painting, the
occasional
not-so-identifiable or gothic model (TAU APCs and Tanks) and so on. I
buy
modelling tools from GW. I play Space Hulk and have played some other
games
of theirs (Gorka Morka, Bombers over the Sulfa River, Necromunda and
Blood
Bowl). But WH40K's only advantage in my eyes (and not to me) is ubiquity
of
product and players. It isn't quality of rules or style of products. It
isn't the gamerish focus on points.

I think people on the list have outlined their experiences pro and con.
Hopefully some of that is useful to the original poster in making up his
mind. My advice boils down to this: If it gets you gaming more and your
friends are a bit flexible on how much you have to spend, give it a try.
A
not-so-inspired game played is still better than a million conjecturally
better games. But if you can take those same friends and introduce them
to
SG2 or DS2 or FT and get them playing, you may find that WH40K just
looks a
bit laughable in comparison.

Thomas B.
half of www.stargrunt.ca
-- 
"Now, I go to spread happiness to the rest of the station. It is a
terrible
responsibility but I have learned to live with it."
Londo, A Voice in the Wilderness, Part I

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like
administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine

Thomas Paine