Re: SG-1 in SG2

--- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 11:48 PM -0700 7/14/04, J L Hilal wrote:
> >2) the ability to penetrate reinforced PASGT is at under 100m
> 
> You sure about that? The SS-190 punches through 
> 48 layers of kevlar at 200 meters according to FN 
> data. The Subsonic SB193 does 24 layers of kevlar 
> at 50 meters.

My bad.  I was thinking RBA but wrote PASGT.  The FN site I looked at:
http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm
says Level IIIA
PASGT is Level III, while the unreinfoced parts of RBA is IIIA, and the
reinforced parts are more than IIIA but not quite IV (5.56 and 7.62
NATO ball, but not .30-'06), though not as extensive as Interceptor.
I also looked into the Interim system.	It is supposed to offer equal
level of protection to RBA and cover greater areas, but still not as
good as Interceptor.
 
> >
> >M16A2 = effective range ~550m
> >M4A1 =  effective range ~350m
> >P90 =   effective range ~200m
> >I couldn't find effective range numbers for the MP5
> 
> ~100meters
> http://www.hk94.com/hecklerkoch-mp5.html
> 
> Given that it's half the velocity, it works out
> 

But the question is: how do these numbers compare to SG2?
Taking the ~5.5mm assault rifle (M16, SA80, G36, AK74, etc.) as the
baseline to equal small arms fire in SG2, we find that an SG2 Regular
quality has 400m as the extreme edge of what is effective on the table
(presumably shorter than what is found on a firing range).  If you use
a house rule to make small arms fire an Open Shift rather than Closed,
then of course this will change.

Now, if you want to either a) give the P90 triple range band die type
shifts or b) give it BOTH double die shifts like a M4 carbine AND ALSO
limit it to 1st and 2nd RBs only, then I could live with either of
these options.

> >Additionally, I have never seen or heard of anyone other than SG-1
> >refer to or use the P90 as anything other than a SMG.
> 
> The lead man that went into the Japanese Embassy 
> had one. So did the french team that boarded that 
> bus full of hostages several years ago. Special 
> ops uses them. Its in the mix.

Both situations calling for a SMG, not an asault rifle or carbine.

BTW, in game terms I would call both of your examples CQB using the SG2
close assault rules.

> 
> >Finally, every force that regularly uses SMGs like the MP-5 in CQB
> >uses M-16 or a national equivalent for open terrain operations.
> 
> Yep, but sg teams tend to plan their engagements 
> pretty well and if they're going up against a 
> known foe in a certain environment they carry the 
> right weapons for the job if at all possible.
> 

My point is "no, they don't".

I can understand bringing SMGs when the MALP shows a built up area or
ship around the Gate, but they bring MP5s/P90s everywhere, even into
wilderness or desert areas.

> SPAS-12s and P90s for Replicators.

Understandable.

> Zats, P90s, and perhaps an M16 with the Beta C Magazine for Jaffa

I noticed the Beta-C only once.  Every wilderness area should warrant
at least M4s, if not M16+.

> Add in a FN Minimi for work against Jaffa in a 
> big area and against known numbers or one of 
> those Gould invisible assassin guys.

The use of the M249 on the invisible assassin guy was hardly "plan
their engagements pretty well" or "carry the right weapons for the
job".  They had P90s and the M249 was conveniently left where ONeill
could grab and spray.


> >That is, IMO, more an effect of "Good Guy Success Syndrome".  I
> >always thought that staff weapons should be much more effective 
> >than regularly portayed in the show.  My benchmark is the teaser of 
> >the episode with the amazon Jaffa (the one with Jolene Blalock) 
> >where a rapid fire, close range barrage from 5 jaffettes blasts
> >to cinders the entire jaffa force, as well as all of the foliage 
> >concealment and the trees used as cover in what would equal 1 
> >stargrunt fire action.
> 
> Plot device I think. Why don't normal Jaffa do 
> so? Its more of an area weapon and that seems to 
> how they did it.
> 

Interesting how our views differ.  We always felt the ineffectiveness
of the jaffa was the plot device.  Its main purpose being to allow the
4-member teams to kick their butts.  If the jaffa were even mediocre,
then there would need to be a much larger team with a high turnover
bunch of "redshirts" to catch the fire and allow the main characters to
survive all the episodes.

> 
> >If the bad guy jaffa did this instead of just charging the guns like
> >the light brigade, the SGC would need replacements at a rate to make
> >Zhukov blanche.
> 
> They'd just get out of the beaten zone first I think.
> 

If the jaffa barrage fired like this regularly, the SG team wouldn't be
able to drag their cauterized stumps out of the beaten zone.

> >
> >>  whereas the SG weapons tend to shred the Jaffa
> >>  and the symbiote with a full on torso shot. Especially with the
> >>  P90s and other higher FB auto weapons.
> >
> >again: "Good Guy Success Syndrome"
> 
> I put it more down to weapon of war with sights 
> vs terror weapon. And the guys with the weapons 
> of war shoot at smaller targets at longer range 
> when they practice vs a big log at 100 meters.
> 

So if they brought M4s, M16s, etc. into the woods/deserts instead of
MP5s and P90s, they would do even better.  Which makes the handicaps on
the jaffa too excessive for what we want to do.  This is the reason I
put two range categories for the staff weapon.	One for those who want
to equip their SG team as seen on the show and the other for those
(like the group I play with) who want to equip them as standard US
Special Forces/SEALs/Marines/light infantry.

> >Depends.  One could postulate that the helmet+staff work like the US
> >Land Warrior IHAS, with the target reticle projected on the inside
> >of the helmet.  This also explains how they can walk around the
woods
> >without bumbing into and tripping over things with the face plate
> >up: 300 degree display in the helmet
> 
> then I'd expect those guys to be better than they 
> are. 

We do too.  And in our games they will be, which allows the SG player
to have a reasonable size force without making the jaffa player feel
like a redshirt.

 
> 2 of their 5 weapons are designed to make a big 
> show or capture the opposing force.  The only 
> reason the SG teams don't eat them for lunch 
> every time is that they can call on larger space 
> craft like the Hataks for air support.  Remove 
> that mode and give the SG teams more than 4 men 
> and the Jaffa start to have a really hard time. 
> No mortars, no armored fighting vehicles and 
> nothing big enough to bust another big ship, 
> that's under control of the Gould.  One wouldn't 
> want the Jaffa getting uppity would you?
> 

Until the Taurri showed up, there was't a problem with uppity jaffa.
:)

> Little beady eyes....and a big screen, no problem 
> with that...They still never seem to be very 
> accurate, and I'll point out that when SG-1 goes 
> into the great out doors where its wide and open, 
> Tealc tends to leave his staff weapon behind and 
> carries an M249.

He has on a few rare occasions, but in the vast majority of woodsy,
village, and desert episodes he still uses the staff.

> >
> >Bad guy Jaffa have pour AP, Teal'c and Bretak are quite good at it.
> >Hmmm. . . "Good Guy Success/Bad Guy Incompetence Syndrome" again?
> 
> Nope, Bretak and Teal'c think outside the box. 
> They were first Primes the both of them. The best 
> of the best of the best.
> 

"Best of the Best of the Mediocre", you mean

> Sure, the Jaffa have some modicum of the same 
> level of training as the Star Wars Imperial 
> Troops,

Another good example of "Good Guy Success/Bad Guy Incompetence
Syndrome" and "Impressive Bad Guy Armor Can't Stop A Spitball
Syndrome".

 
> >Essentially, we are going on the assumption that an SG team is
> >between a large squad and platoon in strength (the extra bodies 
> >dropped from the show for cinematic concerns) and equipped as normal

> >US forces with M16s, M203s, and M249s (shown as MP5s & P90s for 
> >cinematic effect).
> 
> They're set up like an SAS team aren't they? (4 man teams?).
> 

US Army Light Infantry/Rangers/Airborne/Air Assault:
4-man command group (PL, PSgt, RTO, medic), 3 rifle squads of 9, each
with 2x4-man fireteams (2xM16, 1xM16/M203, 1xM249 each) + weapons squad
with 2-3xM240 and 2xDragon or Javelin

USMC:
4-man command group (PL, PSgt, RTO, naval corpsman), 3 rifle squads of
13, each with 3x4-man fireteams as above, MGs and AT teams assigned
from Co. Weapons Platoon.

SF Alpha team:
12 memebers; CO (Capt.), XO (Warrant), 10x NCOs, work in 6-, 4-, or
3-man teams as needed.

SEAL platoon
16 members in 2 sections/4 fireteams

I am not real familiar with the modern SAS, but the part I do know
about is the Rhodesian SAS in the 60s:
6-man team; 5xRPD (belt fed 7.62x39mm) and 1xRPG-7 & AKM.  Long range
heavy support provided by units with L4 Bren and FAL heavy barrel LSW.

 
> You can see the rounds going out and you are 
> point shooting. Give me the same paintball gun 
> with better sights and better accuracy and I'll 
> hit you at longer ranges accurately. I think 
> you're over estimating your range however. My 
> Timpman 98 carbine with a polished after market 
> and longer barrel tends to loose rounds to side 
> spin at around ~100 feet. Not yards. I haven't 
> been on the field in a while but a man sized 
> target at the other end of a foot ball field? 
> No-way...not with a paintball gun. The FPS is too 
> slow.
> 

at 100': hit with every shot.  At 100 yds: at least 1 good break out of
a burst.

> With my FN Fal, I can hit smaller targets at 
> longer ranges than you can with your paintball gun.

Well, "Duh!"
That was an example of inaccurate ballistics that is still better than
a jaffa.

> >Other than the pilot, I don't remember any jaffa being hit by a
> >burst of MP5 or M9 fire and NOT going down.
> 
> Usually that's because Jack and Sam made their 
> shots count. In those days Daniel was crouching 
> with his M9
> 

So . . . hits from a MP5 burst will penetrate jaffa armor.  My point
wasn't aimed at who was shooting or how accurate, just that they always
take a dive on the show.

> 
> >
> >>  9mm isn't so hot against basic armor, but an FN5.7 is very much
> >>  designed to defeat hard armor at range.
> >
> >Designed to defeat SOFT armor at range.  If you call 50-100m "at
> >range".
> 
> 200 meters according to FN. 48 layers of kevlar.

You're right: soft armor at 200m; hard armor not at all.

> >>  The Jaffa have to pile on and get close.
> >
> >In the show, an SG team can defeat 5-10x their own number using MP5s
> >and P90s (4-member SG-1 can usually take 20-40 jaffa in groups of
> >6-12).  That's going to be a very crowded table with 400+ jaffa to
> >overrun a rifle platoon.
> 
> Yep. Pin them down and flank them. The SG teams 
> usually start to have problems when the Jaffa do 
> that fire and maneuver thing. Pin a force with 
> ranged fire and move another force to the flank 
> to close and destroy. That's where the SG teams 
> start to feel their 4 man teams and hurt. Put a 
> rifle company of Marines or Army out there, well, 
> unless the JAffa bring air support in the form of 
> Hatak, then the Jaffa are going to leaving the 
> field with their tails between their legs.

Not even a company, just a light platoon.  Going by the show, even a
marine squad should be able to fight a Goa'uld homeworld to a draw,
only needing the rest of the platoon to go over to the offensive for a
win.

> 
> 
> >Did you skip the beginning of my post?  The part where I said that
> we
> >wanted games with larger forces than 4-12 SG figs and normal weapons
> >rather then SMGs?  A US light infantry platoon could singlehandedly
> >defeat all the ground forces of any system lord if the jaffa are
> >limited to SMG ranges and CQB.
> 
> Nope, I just find it odd....There were instances 
> where the SG teams did go to field with a whole 
> bunch in hand. The episode where Doc Frasier buys 
> the farm is one.  There are others.  I don't think 
> you should have to do a platoon sized SG team.

If you ask the question: "what would be worth it to put through the
Gate to ensure success?", the answer is going to be "large squad for
close recon; rifle platoon or more for exploration; Alpha team, SEAL
platoon, or Ranger platoon for special operation"

 
> With a big enough table and a double blind system 
> you could have an unmarked SG team skulking about 
> while Jaffa go about their patrol looking for 
> intruders.  Good use of sniper markers and some 
> extra work and you could run a neat set of SG-1 
> type games with only an SG team on the other 
> side.  It'd play out like Space Hulk, which was 
> fun for a GW game.

Yes, you could, but that is not what we are looking for.  Your
suggestion is, however, what I would call a "skirmish game".

 
> 
> Scorpion, scimitar, ets. I'm not sure how to get 
> them in the gate room at Chyanne however....I'm 
> sure someone would wonder why you're lowering a 
> Scorpion light tank down a missile silo...
> 

Before or after they wonder why there is a missile silo at Cheyanne
Mt.?  

Once you start looking at this from a "what is needed to make the
operations worthwhile?" rather than Hollywood perspective, the Gate
operations get moved from NORAD's rootcellar to the warehouse/hanger in
Nevada where the secondary gate was boxed (also shown as the site of
the Backstep Project in "7 Days"), and you can do a LOT more, like
putting an AC(L) troop through for exploring desert planets.

> >>
> >>  Oh, there's also the issue of a Gould on the battle field.
> >>
> >
> >That is actually a good point.  Either give him "wounds" or a larger
> >casualty die.  e.g. roll a d8 or d10 instead of d6 and scores of 6+
> >are returned to play.  Which is better?
> 
> Same armor, larger casualty die. The energy armor 
> is the hard part....You've got to get him where 
> he doesn't have time to bring up his screens. 
> Though your paint ball guns do work there....Some 
> kind of surprise engagement rule on Gould?
> 

It always seemed to me that the screens were automatic, which means
after they appear the Goa'uld itself is immune to both staff and
gunpowder weapons.  Where's an English longbowman when you need him?

> What was it Jack said about the Asgard? "I love those guys!"

"Litle Green Men?"
"Actually they're grey, Roswell Grey"
:)

J