Re: SG-1 in SG2

At 11:48 PM -0700 7/14/04, J L Hilal wrote:
>--- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>  Actually, I'd argue that the P90s fall into a middle band for
>>  effectiveness with the M-16s and that the Staff weapons and Zats are
>>  short range weapons.  The episode where SG-1 and specifically
Captain
>
>>  Carter (at the time) show up a bunch of the free Jaffa exactly how
>>  effective their weapons are....Carter saws a swinging log in half
>>  with the P90 and then cuts the remaining bit down.
>
>I laughed through the entire scene.
>
>
>>  >SMGs
>>  >5.7mm P-90 	 *  FP:4  I:d8	RB:Qx1	1st RB only, +2 DT in
CQB
>>  >9mm MP-5		 *  FP:3  I:d8	RB:Qx1	1st RB only, +2 DT in
CQB
>>  >.40/10mm MP-10	    FP:3  I:d10 RB:Qx1	1st RB only, +2 DT in
CQB
>>
>>  P90's are effective to 200 yards so they need to go further and they
>>  have a better AP performance (that's 200 yards and able to penetrate
>>  multiple layers of kevlar). The P90's 50 round magazine should have
>>  an impact on it's game performance too.
>>
>>  5.7mm P-90		* FP:4	I:d8  RB:Qx1  2xRB shifts, +2 DT in CQB
>
>1) the P90s 50-round mag is the reason it rates FP:4 rather than FP:3
>like the H&Ks
>
>2) the ability to penetrate reinforced PASGT is at under 100m

You sure about that? The SS-190 punches through 
48 layers of kevlar at 200 meters according to FN 
data. The Subsonic SB193 does 24 layers of kevlar 
at 50 meters.

>3) I would rate other .22-.25 cal. ammo pistols/SMGs as d4/d6.  The
>long (for a pistol round) 5.7 FN at x28mm is already higher rated at
>d6/d8, which is equal to the 9mm Parabellum rating

Makes sense.

>
>M16A2 = effective range ~550m
>M4A1 =  effective range ~350m
>P90 =	 effective range ~200m
>I couldn't find effective range numbers for the MP5

~100meters
http://www.hk94.com/hecklerkoch-mp5.html

Given that it's half the velocity, it works out

>from this, we wanted to make the M4 carbine shorter ranged than full
>assault rifles.  That is why we came up with having carbines suffer 2
>die shifts per range band rather than the normal 1.  I very firmly
>believe that the P90 should NOT be in the same category as the M4.  It
>should have less range.
>
>Additionally, I have never seen or heard of anyone other than SG-1
>refer to or use the P90 as anything other than a SMG.

The lead man that went into the Japanese Embassy 
had one. So did the french team that boarded that 
bus full of hostages several years ago. Special 
ops uses them. Its in the mix.

>The P90 may be "a weapon of war", but only as a weapon of last resort
>for vehicle crew (its original purpose), not as a primary line infantry
>weapon.

>Finally, every force that regularly uses SMGs like the MP-5 in CQB uses
>M-16 or a national equivalent for open terrain operations.

Yep, but sg teams tend to plan their engagements 
pretty well and if they're going up against a 
known foe in a certain environment they carry the 
right weapons for the job if at all possible.

SPAS-12s and P90s for Replicators.
Zats, P90s, and perhaps an M16 with the Beta C Magazine for Jaffa
Add in a FN Minimi for work against Jaffa in a 
big area and against known numbers or one of 
those Gould invisible assassin guys.

>
>>  >Squad Support Weapons
>>  >5.56mm M-249 AR mode  *  FP:4  I:d8  RB:Qx2 +1 DT in CQB
>>  >5.56mm M-249 LMG mode    FP:d8 I:d8  RB:Qx2 1-crew SW, +1 DT in CQB
>>
>>  Make these RB:Qx3. The longer barrel does have an effect on it's
>>  range.
>
>At Qx2, range is already double that of other 5.56mm NATO small arms,
>like the M-16, and you can only do so much with a bipod weapon, even
>with long, heavy barrels like these, but . . .
>5.56mm M-249 tripod LMG     FP:d8 I:d8  RB:Qx3 2-crew SW
>
>
>>  >
>>  >Jaffa weapons:
>>  >Generally shown as firing at a rate equal to bolt-action (FP:1) or
>>  >semi-auto (FP:2), however, there are some instances where they are
>>  >fired very rapidly (by Breetak and the amazon Jaffa) which pushes
>>  >towards FP:3.  Further, the blast effect of the staff might give a
>>  >boost into a die type, d6 or d8.  If you play with MP5 and P90,
then
>  > >all fire will be in the 1st RB and die type FP staff weapons will
>>  >shred the SG player very quickly (4-8 jaffa per squad).
>>
>>  Thats the thing. The SG teams tend to take down Jaffa rather quick
>>  with their accurate fire whereas the JAffa are more used to moving
to
>>  close range and defeating their opponents.
>
>That is, IMO, more an effect of "Good Guy Success Syndrome".  I always
>thought that staff weapons should be much more effective than regularly
>portayed in the show.	My benchmark is the teaser of the episode with
>the amazon Jaffa (the one with Jolene Blalock) where a rapid fire,
>close range barrage from 5 jaffettes blasts to cinders the entire Jaffa
>force, as well as all of the foliage concealment and the trees used as
>cover in what would equal 1 stargrunt fire action.

Plot device I think. Why don't normal Jaffa do 
so? Its more of an area weapon and that seems to 
how they did it.

>If the bad guy jaffa did this instead of just charging the guns like
>the light brigade, the SGC would need replacements at a rate to make
>Zhukov blanche.

They'd just get out of the beaten zone first I think.

>
>>   Note, Jaffa tend to survive Staff blasts
>
>I always got the feel that Jaffa hit by staff weapons were usually
>combat ineffective, even if not killed.

Oh, yes, that is true. I was just pointing out 
that the Jaffa weaponry seems to be setup so that 
it doesn't entirely kill the opposing force 
Jaffa. Afterall the Gould rules say that when you 
kill a Gould, his forces become your forces. If 
you've killed all of his forces, then it's hard 
to take them over. If you leave a whole bunch of 
them combat ineffective for a time and then they 
recover (as well as your casualties who were also 
injured) then you tend to suffer less for the 
wars.

>
>>  whereas the SG weapons tend to shred the Jaffa
>>  and the symbiote with a full on torso shot. Especially with the P90s
>>  and other higher FB auto weapons.
>
>again: "Good Guy Success Syndrome"

I put it more down to weapon of war with sights 
vs terror weapon. And the guys with the weapons 
of war shoot at smaller targets at longer range 
when they practice vs a big log at 100 meters.

>Depends.  One could postulate that the helmet+staff work like the US
>Land Warrior IHAS, with the target reticle projected on the inside of
>the helmet.  This also explains how they can walk around the woods
>without bumbing into and tripping over things with the face plate up:
>300 degree display in the helmet

then I'd expect those guys to be better than they 
are. The Jaffa have three weapons. Short Range 
energy weapons (staff guns and zats), the larger 
staff weapon thingy on a tripod and their death 
gliders. Oh, then there's that screaming grenade 
thing that incapacitates you.

2 of their 5 weapons are designed to make a big 
show or capture the opposing force. The only 
reason the SG teams dont' eat them for lunch 
every time is that they can call on larger space 
craft like the Hataks for air support. Remove 
that mode and give the SG teams more than 4 men 
and the Jaffa start to have a really hard time. 
No mortars, no armored fighting vehicles and 
nothing big enough to bust another big ship, 
that's under control of the Gould. One wouldn't 
want the Jaffa getting uppity would you?

>They may look like frog-mouth jousting helmets, but even if you dip
>your head, there is no vision slit.  :)
>

Little beady eyes....and a big screen, no problem 
with that...They still never seem to be very 
accurate, and I'll point out that when SG-1 goes 
into the great out doors where its wide and open, 
Tealc tends to leave his staff weapon behind and 
carries an M249.

>
>Bad guy Jaffa have pour AP, Teal'c and Bretak are quite good at it.
>Hmmm. . . "Good Guy Success/Bad Guy Incompetence Syndrome" again?

Nope, Bretak and Teal'c think outside the box. 
They were first Primes the both of them. The best 
of the best of the best.

Sure, the Jaffa have some modicum of the same 
level of training as the Star Wars Imperial 
Troops, but they're not using the same weapons, 
their ability with the weapons is down to their 
ability to point shoot, not use a piece of 
precision technology. They have no equivalent to 
a sniper rifle because that would probably make 
it too easy to kill a Gould, which the Gould 
don't want to happen. they'd rather gloat over a 
defeated Gould, give him a chance to turn sides 
and serve.

>I didn't mean it as a sliding scale.  I meant it as "if your group uses
>SG teams with MP5/P90 as seen on TV, then..." and "if your group uses
>SG teams equipped with real ranged weapons, then...".
>
>Essentially, we are going on the assumption that an SG team is between
>a large squad and platoon in strength (the extra bodies dropped from
>the show for cinematic concerns) and equipped as normal US forces with
>M16s, M203s, and M249s (shown as MP5s & P90s for cinematic effect).

They're set up like an SAS team aren't they? (4 man teams?).

>
>I can hit another player with a smoothbore paintball marker, without
>sights, firing spherical projectiles, at 100 yards.  That's a LOT less
>accurate than a .22 rimfire, and I don't get staff weapon blast effects
>from near misses.

You can see the rounds going out and you are 
point shooting. Give me the same paintball gun 
with better sights and better accuracy and I'll 
hit you at longer ranges accurately. I think 
you're over estimating your range however. My 
Timpman 98 carbine with a polished after market 
and longer barrel tends to loose rounds to side 
spin at around ~100 feet. Not yards. I haven't 
been on the field in a while but a man sized 
target at the other end of a foot ball field? 
No-way...not with a paintball gun. The FPS is too 
slow.

With my FN Fal, I can hit smaller targets at 
longer ranges than you can with your paintball 
gun. If I were more used to the weapon (ie 
thousands of shots at the range and in real 
combat) I'd be even faster and better.

>And I can fire semi-auto fast enough to chop pellets in the feeder with
>the bolt, which, according to the manufacturer, is seven shots per
>second with the gravity feed.	Thats also better than a staff weapon as
>shown.
>
>Teal'c, on the other hand, can hit a flying symbiote, behind him,
>firing over his shoulder, from port arms position.  I don't remember
>whether he bothered to look first.  I think that's better than every
>trick shooter Buffalo Bill Cody ever put in his Wild West show :)

It's that whole best of the best of the best 
thing. Teal'c's got to have a thing. Kind of a 
zen like thing that most other jaffa don't 
have...remember that box they stay in...

>
>>
>>  >Staff Cannon, manual	     FP:d10 or d12 I:d12*  RB:Q  x(3 or
>4)
>>  >Staff Cannon, groundmout w/ FCS FP:as above   I:d12*  RB:12 x(3 or
>4)
>>
>>  Still, crappy sights. Lower the FP, FP 8.
>>
>
>I credited the FP for blast effect + "Bad Guy Incompetence/Good Guy
>Luck".
>
>
>Other than the pilot, I don't remember any jaffa being hit by a burst
>of MP5 or M9 fire and NOT going down.

Usually that's because Jack and Sam made their 
shots count. In those days Daniel was crouching 
with his M9

>
>>  9mm isn't so hot against basic armor, but an FN5.7 is very much
>>  designed to defeat hard armor at range.
>
>Designed to defeat SOFT armor at range.  If you call 50-100m "at
>range".

200 meters according to FN. 48 layers of kevlar.
>
>But it puts 'em down for game purposes, even if they are healed by the
>next battle.

Yep.

>
>>
>>  Remeber, the SG teams should eat up their equivalent number of
Jaffa.
>>
>>  The Jaffa have to pile on and get close.
>
>In the show, an SG team can defeat 5-10x their own number using MP5s
>and P90s (4-member SG-1 can usually take 20-40 jaffa in groups of
>6-12).  That's going to be a very crowded table with 400+ jaffa to
>overrun a rifle platoon.

Yep. Pin them down and flank them. The SG teams 
usually start to have problems when the Jaffa do 
that fire and maneuver thing. Pin a force with 
ranged fire and move another force to the flank 
to close and destroy. That's where the SG teams 
start to feel their 4 man teams and hurt. Put a 
rifle company of Marines or Army out there, well, 
unless the JAffa bring air support in the form of 
Hatak, then the Jaffa are going to leaving the 
field with their tails between their legs.

>Did you skip the beginning of my post?  The part where I said that we
>wanted games with larger forces than 4-12 SG figs and normal weapons
>rather then SMGs?  A US light infantry platoon could singlehandedly
>defeat all the ground forces of any system lord if the jaffa are
>limited to SMG ranges and CQB.

Nope, I just find it odd....There were instances 
where the SG teams did go to field with a whole 
bunch in hand. The episode where Doc Frasier buys 
the farm is one. There are others. I don't think 
you should have to do a platoon sized SG team. 
With a big enough table and a double blind system 
you could have an unmarked SG team skulking about 
while Jaffa go about their patrol looking for 
intruders. Good use of sniper markers and some 
extra work and you could run a neat set of SG-1 
type games with only an SG team on the other 
side. It'd play out like Space Hulk, which was 
fun for a GW game.  In fact, you could do that 
with some space hulk map chips for corrodors on a 
gould ship. Figure out cover bonuses well 
however. SG teams tend to act like mice inside 
gould ships. And the Jaffa foot wear doesn't do 
well for sneaking around.

>
>>
>>  Don't forget the claymore mines, ManPadSAMs, AT-4s (seen them on the
>>  show once I think) and the other weapons.
>>
>
>And in the pilot movie we see that the gliders are vulnerable to
>shoulder fired Stingers, so just put an Avenger through the Gate and

ManPadSams.

>you can hold it indefinately.	While your at it, the Brits have a line
>of light tracks that are less than 8' wide (the ones with "S" names).
>Just put a couple of those through and see how the jaffa (whom you
>limited to 1st RB and no "*" weapons) deal with a couple of 30mm chain
>guns and 90mm HVCs behind vehicular armor.

Scorpion, scimitar, ets. I'm not sure how to get 
them in the gate room at Chyanne however....I'm 
sure someone would wonder why you're lowering a 
Scorpion light tank down a missile silo...

>
>>
>>  Oh, there's also the issue of a Gould on the battle field.
>>
>
>That is actually a good point.  Either give him "wounds" or a larger
>casualty die.	e.g. roll a d8 or d10 instead of d6 and scores of 6+ are
>returned to play.  Which is better?

Same armor, larger casualty die. The energy armor 
is the hard part....You've got to get him where 
he doesn't have time to bring up his screens. 
Though your paint ball guns do work there....Some 
kind of surprise engagement rule on Gould?

>  > Oh, and then there's the issue of a Asgard Ship showing up, the
>  > associated fleeing of the Gould and the Jaffa standing around in
>>  stark terror as they are beamed to where ever the Asgard beam them
>>  too....
>
>They go to the same place Post-Dated Check Loan beams his prisoners:
>into the raw materials bin for the fabricator	:)

What was it Jack said about the Asgard? "I love those guys!"
-- 
--
Ryan Gill	       rmgill@SPAMmindspring.com
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