Re: SG-1 in SG2

--- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Actually, I'd argue that the P90s fall into a middle band for 
> effectiveness with the M-16s and that the Staff weapons and Zats are 
> short range weapons.	The episode where SG-1 and specifically Captain

> Carter (at the time) show up a bunch of the free Jaffa exactly how 
> effective their weapons are....Carter saws a swinging log in half 
> with the P90 and then cuts the remaining bit down.

I laughed through the entire scene.

> >SMGs
> >5.7mm P-90	       *  FP:4	I:d8  RB:Qx1  1st RB only, +2 DT in CQB
> >9mm MP-5	       *  FP:3	I:d8  RB:Qx1  1st RB only, +2 DT in CQB
> >.40/10mm MP-10	  FP:3	I:d10 RB:Qx1  1st RB only, +2 DT in CQB
> 
> P90's are effective to 200 yards so they need to go further and they 
> have a better AP performance (that's 200 yards and able to penetrate 
> multiple layers of kevlar). The P90's 50 round magazine should have 
> an impact on it's game performance too.
> 
> 5.7mm P-90		* FP:4	I:d8  RB:Qx1  2xRB shifts, +2 DT in CQB

1) the P90s 50-round mag is the reason it rates FP:4 rather than FP:3
like the H&Ks

2) the ability to penetrate reinforced PASGT is at under 100m

3) I would rate other .22-.25 cal. ammo pistols/SMGs as d4/d6.	The
long (for a pistol round) 5.7 FN at x28mm is already higher rated at
d6/d8, which is equal to the 9mm Parabellum rating

M16 & M4     use  5.56x45mm NATO
P90 & FN 5-7 uses 5.7x28mm FN
MP5, M9/M11  uses 9x19mm Parabellum

M16 has 508mm barrel
M4  has 370mm barrel
P90 has 263mm barrel
MP5 has 225mm barrel

M16A2 = effective range ~550m
M4A1 =	effective range ~350m
P90 =	effective range ~200m
I couldn't find effective range numbers for the MP5

from this, we wanted to make the M4 carbine shorter ranged than full
assault rifles.  That is why we came up with having carbines suffer 2
die shifts per range band rather than the normal 1.  I very firmly
believe that the P90 should NOT be in the same category as the M4.  It
should have less range.

Additionally, I have never seen or heard of anyone other than SG-1
refer to or use the P90 as anything other than a SMG.

The P90 may be "a weapon of war", but only as a weapon of last resort
for vehicle crew (its original purpose), not as a primary line infantry
weapon.

Finally, every force that regularly uses SMGs like the MP-5 in CQB uses
M-16 or a national equivalent for open terrain operations.

> >Squad Support Weapons
> >5.56mm M-249 AR mode  *  FP:4  I:d8	RB:Qx2 +1 DT in CQB
> >5.56mm M-249 LMG mode    FP:d8 I:d8	RB:Qx2 1-crew SW, +1 DT in CQB
> 
> Make these RB:Qx3. The longer barrel does have an effect on it's
> range.

At Qx2, range is already double that of other 5.56mm NATO small arms,
like the M-16, and you can only do so much with a bipod weapon, even
with long, heavy barrels like these, but . . .
5.56mm M-249 tripod LMG     FP:d8 I:d8	RB:Qx3 2-crew SW

> >
> >Jaffa weapons:
> >Generally shown as firing at a rate equal to bolt-action (FP:1) or
> >semi-auto (FP:2), however, there are some instances where they are
> >fired very rapidly (by Breetak and the amazon Jaffa) which pushes
> >towards FP:3.  Further, the blast effect of the staff might give a
> >boost into a die type, d6 or d8.  If you play with MP5 and P90, then
> >all fire will be in the 1st RB and die type FP staff weapons will
> >shred the SG player very quickly (4-8 jaffa per squad).
> 
> Thats the thing. The SG teams tend to take down Jaffa rather quick 
> with their accurate fire whereas the JAffa are more used to moving to
> close range and defeating their opponents.

That is, IMO, more an effect of "Good Guy Success Syndrome".  I always
thought that staff weapons should be much more effective than regularly
portayed in the show.  My benchmark is the teaser of the episode with
the amazon Jaffa (the one with Jolene Blalock) where a rapid fire,
close range barrage from 5 jaffettes blasts to cinders the entire Jaffa
force, as well as all of the foliage concealment and the trees used as
cover in what would equal 1 stargrunt fire action.

If the bad guy jaffa did this instead of just charging the guns like
the light brigade, the SGC would need replacements at a rate to make
Zhukov blanche.

>  Note, Jaffa tend to survive Staff blasts 

I always got the feel that Jaffa hit by staff weapons were usually
combat ineffective, even if not killed.

> whereas the SG weapons tend to shred the Jaffa 
> and the symbiote with a full on torso shot. Especially with the P90s 
> and other higher FB auto weapons.

again: "Good Guy Success Syndrome"

> 
> The lack of sights on the Staff Weapons limits their effective range 
> as far as accuracy. They make up for it in quantity however when the 
> SG teams are in battle at range. Even so, their accurate fire gives 
> more than they get. There's more there than troop quality.
> 
> As Jack said, Staff weapons are instruments of terror. A P-90 is an 
> instrument of war. The sights alone restrict the accuracy of the 
> things.

Depends.  One could postulate that the helmet+staff work like the US
Land Warrior IHAS, with the target reticle projected on the inside of
the helmet.  This also explains how they can walk around the woods
without bumbing into and tripping over things with the face plate up:
300 degree display in the helmet

They may look like frog-mouth jousting helmets, but even if you dip
your head, there is no vision slit.  :)

> >Unless the target is a main character or is needed for the plot, the
> >blast is usually fatal, indicating a high Impact, d10 or d12.  Plus
> >effectivenes vs. structures and cover might indicate a *.
> 
> I'd say low FP for the staff weapons, but high impact. D10. They're 
> not very good as far as AP quality.

Bad guy Jaffa have pour AP, Teal'c and Bretak are quite good at it. 
Hmmm. . . "Good Guy Success/Bad Guy Incompetence Syndrome" again?

same as:
"The White Star flies at the speed of Plot" -JMS

> >Zat: always effective, but never fatal on single hit?
> 
> THis should be permissive of the user's intention. Fire several times
> 
> in a row and you can kill your opponent. But, it's also close ranged 
> (ie no sights).

can't guarantee that the target is intentionally hit multiple times. 
Taken care of by random target selection to determine if you got him
twice (or more)

Zat' = FP:2 (=semi-auto), RB:Qx1, 1st RB only, +1DT in CQB (as pistol)

> >
> >RB:Qx1, limits as predominant SG weapon: 1st RB only if MP5/P90, no
> >limit otherwise
> >
> >so . . .
> >Jaffa Staff Weapon
> >if vs. MP5/P90      FP:2 or 3, 1st RB only
> >if vs. M16/M4, etc  FP:d6 ?
> >in either case I:d10* or d12*   and RB:Qx1
> 
> I don't like the sliding scale thing.

I didn't mean it as a sliding scale.  I meant it as "if your group uses
SG teams with MP5/P90 as seen on TV, then..." and "if your group uses
SG teams equipped with real ranged weapons, then...".

Essentially, we are going on the assumption that an SG team is between
a large squad and platoon in strength (the extra bodies dropped from
the show for cinematic concerns) and equipped as normal US forces with
M16s, M203s, and M249s (shown as MP5s & P90s for cinematic effect).

> FP 2-3 is good. Keep the range 
> band short. Quality times 1 or .5? Fire a .22 rifle with out the 
> sights either over your shoulder looking down the barrel or from the 
> hip and tell me what you hit. Braitak and Tealc are good because 
> they're well, good. But most of the Jaffa just aren't on their level.
> 

I can hit another player with a smoothbore paintball marker, without
sights, firing spherical projectiles, at 100 yards.  That's a LOT less
accurate than a .22 rimfire, and I don't get staff weapon blast effects
from near misses.

And I can fire semi-auto fast enough to chop pellets in the feeder with
the bolt, which, according to the manufacturer, is seven shots per
second with the gravity feed.  Thats also better than a staff weapon as
shown.

Teal'c, on the other hand, can hit a flying symbiote, behind him,
firing over his shoulder, from port arms position.  I don't remember
whether he bothered to look first.  I think that's better than every
trick shooter Buffalo Bill Cody ever put in his Wild West show :)

> 
> >Staff Cannon, manual 	   FP:d10 or d12 I:d12*  RB:Q  x(3 or
4)
> >Staff Cannon, groundmout w/ FCS FP:as above	 I:d12*  RB:12 x(3 or
4)
> 
> Still, crappy sights. Lower the FP, FP 8.
> 

I credited the FP for blast effect + "Bad Guy Incompetence/Good Guy
Luck".

> >  . . . PERSONAL ARMOR . . .
> >The show has discussed that modern ballistic body armor offers no
> >protection against staff weapons, and from observation Jaffa armor
> >offers no protection against anything :)
> 
> Actually, I think it does provide some protection, but when the SG 
> teams shifted to the P90's it was out the window.

Other than the pilot, I don't remember any jaffa being hit by a burst
of MP5 or M9 fire and NOT going down.

> 9mm isn't so hot against basic armor, but an FN5.7 is very much 
> designed to defeat hard armor at range.

Designed to defeat SOFT armor at range.  If you call 50-100m "at
range".

> 
> 
> >This indicates that armor has 2 ratings, one vs ballistic and
> >another vs energy.
> >
> >For game purposes, we are going to give Jaffa armor a good
> >resistance to staff weapons.  There seem to be several layers to 
> >Jaffa armor: a mesh cloth/chainmail, scuplted outer plates, and in 
> >the pilot Teal'c has a large inner chestplate that he removes at the

> >time of the prison break.
> 
> Jaffa seem to die when struck at close range right square on the 
> chest. Shoulder shots don't tend to kill them.

But it puts 'em down for game purposes, even if they are healed by the
next battle.

> 
> Remeber, the SG teams should eat up their equivalent number of Jaffa.
> 
> The Jaffa have to pile on and get close.

In the show, an SG team can defeat 5-10x their own number using MP5s
and P90s (4-member SG-1 can usually take 20-40 jaffa in groups of
6-12).	That's going to be a very crowded table with 400+ jaffa to
overrun a rifle platoon.

Did you skip the beginning of my post?	The part where I said that we
wanted games with larger forces than 4-12 SG figs and normal weapons
rather then SMGs?  A US light infantry platoon could singlehandedly
defeat all the ground forces of any system lord if the jaffa are
limited to SMG ranges and CQB.

> 
> Don't forget the claymore mines, ManPadSAMs, AT-4s (seen them on the 
> show once I think) and the other weapons.
>

And in the pilot movie we see that the gliders are vulnerable to
shoulder fired Stingers, so just put an Avenger through the Gate and
you can hold it indefinately.  While your at it, the Brits have a line
of light tracks that are less than 8' wide (the ones with "S" names). 
Just put a couple of those through and see how the jaffa (whom you
limited to 1st RB and no "*" weapons) deal with a couple of 30mm chain
guns and 90mm HVCs behind vehicular armor.

>
> Oh, there's also the issue of a Gould on the battle field.
>

That is actually a good point.	Either give him "wounds" or a larger
casualty die.  e.g. roll a d8 or d10 instead of d6 and scores of 6+ are
returned to play.  Which is better?

> 
> Oh, and then there's the issue of a Asgard Ship showing up, the 
> associated fleeing of the Gould and the Jaffa standing around in 
> stark terror as they are beamed to where ever the Asgard beam them 
> too....

They go to the same place Post-Dated Check Loan beams his prisoners:
into the raw materials bin for the fabricator  :)

J