Ye Olde Chitless Game and SG figs and engineers

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:56:53 +0200
From: KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de (K.H.Ranitzsch)
Subject: Re: ye olde chitless game!

> 2) EW counters - dunno. No good idea leaps to
> mind. 

Penny with some lightning flashes ?

[Tomb] Beth's suggestion was a remote (like the news crew had). Get a
few of these and paint 1/2/3 on them or have a remote, a remote plus
antena, etc. 

> 16) Sys - dunno

Penny with sparks and flashes ?

[Tomb] New thought: A clump of BLUE-GREY smoke to be put on the vehicle.
(Your electronics going "kaput").

G'day,

I'm finally getting around to thinking of a "sensible" human SG force. I
don't mind the Gurkhas or the NSL Panzergrens but both of those have
been done down here. So does anyone know of a line of good looking
modern 25mm figs (Vietnam era onward)? Preferrably UK but anything nice
is worth knowing about.

[Tomb]
My preferences - totally personal opinion, mind you -  (in order):
1) GZG Gurkhas 
2) GZG OUDF (I _love_ these figs)
3) GZG FSE Legion Etrange Colonial
4) GZG Dutch or Indonesians (look quite similar)
5) GZG New Israelis
6) GZG Panzergrens
7) GZG ESU Heavy Infantry 
8) GZG Mercenaries
9) GZG New PAU
10) Ainsty Federation Troops (both varieties, though the mid-tech marine
SAW bites)
11) Ainsty (I think) Ventaurians (with helmets on!)

Ambivalent:
1) GZG IF
2) GZG Old PAU
3) GZG ESU Naval Infantry
4) GZG Colonial Militia

I don't really like:
1) GZG NAC
2) GZG FCT
3) GZG Romanovs
4) GZG NSL Jaegers

BETH: If you need pics of any figures from any of these lines, I'm
pretty sure I have 90% of them. And a digital camera, and now I seem to
have "some more time on my hands" suddenly, so drop me a line offlist if
there are any you want to see. 

Ye olde Chitless, part II:

> 22) Panic - dunno.

Discarded rifles?

[Tomb] Using these for "routed". 

Instead of washers, how about plastic Poker chips?  Cheap, come in a
bunch of 
colors, and easy to paint.  Blu-tack the figure to the center.

[Tomb] Could do. I happen to like the weight of a fender washer. I
haven't been able to find 1" unpunched rounds, so they're the best
option. Poker chip might be too light. And the cheap ones often have an
undesireable texture, IIRC. 

Has anyone here played with combat engineers as an integral part of
their games or scenarios (JohnA??). If yes is this via them knocking
down/ putting up obstacles or in mine clearing or tread laying across
swampy ground etc? 

[Tomb] I've used them very recently at CampCon for a bridge demolition
scenario (where I also introduced their enemies to engineer PA). I get
the impression from Jon that most deployments of obstacles or clearance
of same takes at least DS timescales if not more (SG is just too short
of a turn). Now, having said that, we discussed scratchbuilding a small
portable CLC (something line charge) for clearing a one man lane through
a minefield. Something like a mortar. And maybe the modern equivalent of
Bangalores, etc.  

SG-wise can/do combat engineers go on foot and if so what kit do they
carry (i.e. how does it vary compared to "normal" kit)?

[Tomb] I'd imagine a lot like infantry kit PLUS engineering gear.
Explosives, wire cutters, etc. But they still tend to carry weaponry! 

And saving the dumb a$$ question for last do combat engineers = pioneers
(I should probably have asked Derek this but I only thought of it on the
way to work this morning).

[Tomb] Think of pioneers as infantrymen trained to do 50% (at a guess)
of what a combat engineer does, focused on breaching tasks and on
setting up static defenses. They usually represent (in CF), a squad in
an infantry platoon (at least at my militia regminent, a weak battalion,
they in theory represented a platoon). Not all formations have them.
They are infanteers, but they have some additional training. I doubt
they could tackle bridge building or some of the other mobility related
tasks Combat Engineers can, and they don't have much in the way of
equipment. 

I've read all the how-to's for TO&Es etc and saw that most everyone uses
4 squads per platoon. Apart from the "it is most efficient with respect
to reactivation" etc arguments I take it that there are sound military
reasons for not having more squads? What happens if you're short on
leader stock??

[Tomb] 3 to 5 squads is normal. Formations that use 3 squads tend to use
1 manouver/2 fire, or 2 manouver/1 fire. Formations with 4 tend to split
2 manouver/2 fire during platoon combat. This provides overwatch/cover.
You want to allow yourself some manouver without too much of a command
problem. I think humans only track well a few things at a time, and more
squads would get (slightly) more confusing on the radio and for
manouvering. Orders would get more convoluted. 

[Tomb] OTOH, elite teams and good units tend to break the squad down by
fireteam (which could, in game, argue for a separate entity) so the
sergeant can manouver and fight the squad. This includes breakdowns into
an LMG fireteam and a rifle fireteam or other breakdowns depending on
kit/doctrine. 

[Tomb] In practical terms in the game, more subunits means: Longer game,
more activations, more flexibility, poorer ability to take casualties,
better firepower efficiency. 

It may well be unrealistic, but I was thinking of the following (so far
only
rough) platoon make-up...

Platoon HQ
Lt
Sgt
EW/Comms
IAVR or PA
SAW or PA (i.e. either the IAVR or SAW will potentially be carried by
PA) 3xriflemen Spotter-drone

Platoon Engineers 

[Tomb] Pioneers. Or Assault Pioneers.

Cpl
6xriflemen (or whatever you call them if they're actually an engineer...
sorry John) SAW or PA Drone

Platoon Mortars
2xtubes
6xcrew
SAW or PA
Comms
Drone

3xRifle Squads
Cpl
IAVR or PA
SAW or PA (i.e. either the IAVR or SAW will potentially be carried by
PA) Comms 4xriflemen (one of these is a medic and there may even be a
sniper/marksman per squad too) Drone

[Tomb] This is a reinforced platoon in some senses. I'd also make a
medic (since they are rarer) an attachment to the Pltn HQ. Of course,
you can argue more medics make sense in a universe of expensive
soldiers... ;) 

of the Starship trooper animated series. Speaking of which does anyone
know where/if you can get PA that isn't all sealed in like GZG PA, but
is more like an exo-skeleton like in the Starship trooper series? Either
that or a 1-2 man walker or gun spider?

[Tomb] I think GZG Panzergrens are almost perfect for the average troopy
in the animated series. If you're talking about their walkers, try to
find some old Heavy Gear minis (before they scaled down). They are about
the right size for those support walkers. 

Well, I don't like the way you've done your PA.  If
you've got that much PA it's best to consolidate them
in 1 squad.  Why?  Movement rates.  Half the selling
point of PA is that it's damn fast.  But you're tying
them to slow regular infantrymen.  PA is your main
striking force, you want to be able to concentrate
them.  2 PA guys isn't a threat.  6-8 is.
 
[Tomb] Excellent analysis of the use of PA. Concur. 

> I'd say whoever launches the assault probably has to
> take enemy chit
> draws first (or standard infantry firefight opfire
> if the assault is
> launched against troops who could do so). At the
> very least, in the
> mentioned scenario, I'd have let APSWs chew upon the offending 
> infantry.

I would say yes UNLESS the initiating unit is infantry
and the target is a vehicle in forest or urban
terrain.

[Tomb] Concur. 

I even HTMLized them for you. . . 

[Tomb] You'll get your moment in the sun. (And no, I don't mean I'll zap
you with a DFFG...)

I've head of them, what do they look like?

[Tomb] Long pipe filled (I think) with explosives. Looks like a length
of pipe. You can attach segments together to make a nice long breach
IIRC. 

> What are the riflemen for?

To protect everyone else?... she says meekly ;)

[Tomb] You usually get up to CHQ before much thought is given to HQ
protection. In a platoon, the leader tends to move around a lot. He
tends to be at or near the fight. 

I get your idea, but I guess my thoughts on PA are much more at the
low-tech end vs yours. Really just an exoskeleton to give you a bit more
strength and protection not necessarily speed. I was also thinking you
could create PA detachments if necessary (sort of on a platoon scale
what Napoleonics did with companies of grenadiers).

[Tomb] Also note, if all you have access to is SLOW PA, then the speed
comment goes away. They are only as fast as your infantry.