Re: [FT] Should all Beams fire at fighters/ordinance?

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On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:

> From: "Derk Groeneveld" <derk@cistron.nl>
> 
> > "A ship-launched surface-to-air missile, RIM-7H, is a variant of
AIM-7E
> > and it's called Sea Sparrow."
> >
> > Also, the STIR and APAR radar systems we build over here incorporate
> > continuous wave target illumination for both Sea Sparrow and Evolved
Sea
> > Sparrow (ESSM). I can't imagine a good many navies ordering
illumination
> > capability for a missile that's optically guided ;) Are you SURE
that was
> > Sea Sparrow you were talking about?
> 
> Yes. The AIM/RIM-7 series is a semi-active homing weapon. That is,
> it requires illumination of the target via a Continuous-wave emitter.
> One way of doing this is to "floodlight" an area - but this is good
only
> to a very short range. A better way is to have a searchlight-type
beam,
> that must be pointed at the target at all times.
> The original BPMDS had an optical tracker that steered the CW beam
onto
> the target, then the missile would follow the glint.

Ah, alright. I'm only familiar with illuminators built into radar
trackers...
 
> Oh yes, NSSMS these days is not the old RIM-7H but the RIM-7M which
> uses a monopulse receiver in the head.

Yup.
 
> > According to Janes the maximum range is 15 to 20,000m, depending on
> > illuminator radar range.
> 
> Janes is usually in the right ballpark.
> 
> >  And I can't comment on the range of our
> > illuminator radar's, but I wouldn't worry about them. The range
isn't as
> > much as I thought it was; been working with the numbers of SM-2 and
ESSM
> > too much, lately, I guess ;)
> 
> STIR's not a bad tracker. I did the Anti-Missile system for the
Turkish
> Navy's
> Yavuz-2 class, which has 2 TMK (Ka-Band) trackers, a TMX (X-band) and
a
> STIR,
> both the latter equipped with CWI for NSSMS missile guidance.

Interesting. I've been involved with training crews for their recent
patrol boats, as well as their latest frigates.
 
> > > So would I. GK's good for about 5 engagements if memory serves.
> >
> > Mmm. Can't comment.
> 
> It's in an HSA  sales brochure :-)

Ah, the official figures :-)
 
> > Nice. Oh, GK also has an optional rapid reload drum that reloads the
> > entire ammo supply in very short time.
> 
> That's something new to me. Considering the sheer weight of those 30mm
> shells, how many tonnes does it weigh?

I'd have to look it up. It's basically a copy of the ammo storage helix.
 
> > > BUT unlike GK and VP requires
> > >  a separate FC radar.
> >
> > Which is a bitch if your command and control or your radar system
fails
> 
> Oh yes.
> <humour mode on>
> So of course you should buy something decent in the way of C2 systems,
> that won''t fail even if badly damaged, like COSYS. Rather than some
> piece of Frenchified Dutch stuff from HSA...
> <humour mode off>

It's not frenchified ;) And it doesn't fail all that often ;) And plenty
of redundancy in the system. 

 
> But seriously... it was scandalous what happened with the Yavuz class.
> The HSA combat system they were fitted with couldn't handle Naval
Gunfire
> Support, so they stuck in a single-console STN-Atlas system , the
> "Surface Engagement Console" or SEC to do that, and the surface
warfare
> stuff as well. Then they added Harpoon missiles - which the SEC, after
a bit
> of work, could also handle ( I did the design of some of the software,
it
> was
> already set up internally to do this ). Then they wanted automated
anti-air
> defence - which again was added to the SEC. So now a single console
from
> STN-Atlas has taken over all of the roles the HSA multi-console system
was
> bought to do, but was unable to do, at about 1/10 of the cost.
> Of course by buying the HSA system, the Turks got given a whole heap
of
> ex-Royal Dutch Air Force F-5 fighters. Sometimes being the best
technical
> solution, and the cheapest, isn't enough to get the contract.

Yes. But don't shift all the blame to HSA. I didn't work for HSA back
then. But I know with the recent frigates (Can't recall the class name,
barbaros II or something like that) there's a big hodgepodge of a C&C
system. Don't ask me why, as we do have a fully integrated solution.
Part
is due to the Turks insisting on two parallel FC systems, part is
Blohmer
Voss.
 
> > I'm not entirely sure, but I thought Phalanx still required search
radar
> > from the ship? Goalkeeper is entirely self contained (but CAN take
search
> > info from the ship as well)
> 
> Same with Phalanx. And both GK and VP suffer from only being able to
> have 1 mount able to fire on a single bearing, as they all use similar
> frequencies. Or at least, this was the case up to 1996, when I last
had
> cause
> to look at them.
> So if you have 2 GKs on board a ship, one will fire forward, the other
aft.
> And if you have 4 VPs, then they each have a mutually-exclusive 90
degree
> sector of responsibility.
> "Remember it's a Goalkeeper, not the whole team" as was pointed out to
me.

*laugh* Well, this is true. It's your last ditch after all the rest of
the
team has failed to stop the attacking missile.

> > > bolted on to a deck, it just needs power supplied. GK mounts weigh
the
> > > same as a 76mm OTO mount - 15 tonnes - and require a deck
penetration.
> > > ie you can easily add a VP to a ship, but adding a GK requires
major
> > > re-construction.
> >
> > Actually, look up HMS Zuiderkruis - A dutch auxiliary ship sent to
the
> > gulf, with a containerized GK system on board.
> 
> Weighing what, 25 tonnes (including self-contained power supply)?
Unless
> the ship was designed to take such, or was big enough with enough deck
space
> to handle the additional topweight, you still have a problem.

Of course. The again, look at the Omani and Qatari FPB's with a GK on
the
rear deck. Not bolted on, but through the deck. But they're not really
big
ships either.
 
> I can remember seeing a parade of GK mounts being tested, while based
in
> the Radar Tor at Hengelo. I spent 10 months in the Netherlands, some
really
> nice people there - some of my friends houses were damaged when the
> fireworks factory at Enschede blew up. I used to park my car next to
it when
> going
> to Enschede markets...

Well, let me know if you make it to Hengelo again and we'll have a
drink?

Cheers,

  Derk
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