Re: Shermans and Panthers

According to George Forty's book "World War Two Tanks" the top speeds of
the
vehicles being discussed were 29 mph for the Pzkwgn V (all versions) and
24
mph for the M4, while the M4A2(76)W is listed as 30 mph.  Granted the
Panther has lower ground pressure and could still move in terrain that
would
bog the Sherman down, but the unreliability of the Panther (even the
later
marks, when compared to that of the Sherman) may call for the operators
to
use a bit less than top speed to keep strain on parts down.  At the
level of
detail present in DS2, this may mean that the speeds would be
equivalent.
In other words, I don't think these figures really support a big
difference
in game speeds--the difference would just be below the granularity level
of
the game.

Other top speeds listed in the book:
German
PzKpfw II (all marks except Dand E)  25 mph
PzKpfw II D and E  35 mph (I suspect this is a typo as the weight/power
figures are too similar to the other models to allow this much
difference)
PxKpfw IV  20 mph
PzKpfw VI E  23.75 mph
UK
A13 Cruiser Tank  30 mph
Matilda Mk II  15 mph
Valentine Mk III  15 mph
Cromwell  40 mph
US
M3/5 Stuart  36 mph
M3 Lee/Grant  21 mph
Russian
T-60  27 mph
T-70  32 mph
BT-1  40 mph
T-34(/76 and /85)  31 mph
KV-1  22 mph
French
Char D2  20 mph
Char B1  17.5 mph
AMR  30 mph
H39  22.5 mph
Italien
M13/40	20 mph
CA P 26  22 mph
Japanese
HA-GO  25 mph
KE-NI  31 mph
CHI-HA	24 mph
Czech
LT vz 35 and 38  25 mph
Swede
m/38  28 mph
m/42  30 mph

There are other tanks in there, but the speeds are not listed for all. 
Plus
this leaves out the fastest tracked AFV of WW2--the M18 Hellcat (a
personal
favorite of mine).  Anyway, back to the point:

I started this thinking that there should be only about two classes of
tracked movement--slow and fast to take into account the mid-20 vehicles
and
the mid-30 vehicle speeds.  But it looks like I've just argued myself
into
supporting either three tracked speeds (slow for the sub-20 speeds,
medium
for the 20's, and fast for the mid-30's and beyond) or the ungraded
approach--though I suspect that the ungraded approach would not really
be
worth the additional complication.

Oh well, just more stuff to think about, I guess.

Rob

----- Original Message -----
From: <Mike.Elliott@bull.co.uk>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: Shermans and Panthers

> Tom,
>
> Thanks for your comments and I take your point about the speed of the
> Panther. The only option we have in DS2 as it stands is to make it
Fast
> Tracked rather than Slow. Otherwise, it would be necessary to define a
new
> Mobility Type - "Medium Tracked"? You pays yer money....
>
> Anyway hope your WW2 games work out OK.
>
> Cheers Mike
>
>
>
>
> The inestimable Mr. Elliot said:
>
> " I checked back on my WW2 stats for DS2:
>
> Sherman: Size 3, Armour 2, Slow Tracked, Stealth 0, ECM None, Firecon
> Basic, 1 * KEC/3 or KEC/4 in turret, 2 * APSW.
>
> Panther: Size 3, Armour 3, Slow Tracked, Stealth 0, ECM None, Firecon
> Basic, 1 * KEC/4 in turret, 2 * APSW.
>
> The Panther has better armour and the Sherman only has as good a main
> weapon as the Panther when it represents the Firefly with a 17pdr gun.
> Perhaps in retrospect the Sherman should be Size 2 - but that would
> actually make it harder to hit.
>
> Sorry, Tom, don't know why you think I rated them the same?"
>
> [Tomb] -- Okay, first, the Panther is (AFAIK) noticeably faster than
the
> Sherman. You might argue the granularity of the conversion doesn't
allow
us
> to represent this difference but I think it should be there somewhere
> because it was a signficant difference in the period in question. One
of
> the
> shortcoming of DS2 is the class based qualification - very much like
the
> old
> hull classes in FT. If DS3 is ever released, I'd hope to see this
> artificial
> boundary approach banished. Then you could see something like a
Sherman
and
> a Panther represented by a difference in mobility speeds within a
tracked
> mobility type.
>
> Also, I don't suppose I'd realized that the KEC/4 was the Firefly and
I
> thought a KEC/4 for both was selling the german long 75 short if you
were
> comparing it with the normal Sherman weapon which was rather inferior
in
> comparison. My fault for not catching that (which is not entirely
obvious
> without being stated, but after you say it I see it). If I'd realized
your
> selection of KEC/4 was the Firefly with its far better main gun, I'd
have
> had a moderated sentiment. I thought when I read this that you just
hadn't
> made up your mind on the conversion and were suggesting it might be
> equivalent to the German 75 on the Panther! :-)
>
> Like the Russians, the American forces wouldn't win on a 1-1 with the
> German
> tanks like the Panther. OTOH, they both usually brought (in the late
war)
> some pretty potent air assets and tanks in the large numbers - I've
seen
> camera reels of US forces using Shermans in line as almost an
artillery
> battery - quantity has a quality all its own.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Thomas R. S. Barclay
> Voice: (613) 722-3232 ext 349
> e-mail: tomb@bitheads.com
>
> 2001: To the New Millenium! The next thousand years
> are MINE.
> ------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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