Re: [FT] Defsats - next question

Karl,

I think you have it solved.  No engines needed just gigantic flywheels
that
are charged up when things are quiet and run the weapons/turning when
they
are needed.  Great idea!

Bob Makowsky

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ranitzsch, Karl Heinz" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [FT] Defsats - next question

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barclay, Tom" <tomb@bitheads.com>
> > Defsat Design 101:
>
> > Following on to this strain of thought.... how fast would these
babies
> > rotate if no thrust was applied? Could they constantly keep the same
arc
> out
> > from the planet (ie Front arc always directly away from the planet)?
>
> From a Physics point of view ?
>
> A free-floating object in space will always either point in the same
> direction or rotate at a fixed speed around a fixed axis. You could
adjust
> its rotation to fit its orbit and to always point outwards - its
turning
> rate is the same as its orbital period. In practice, small adjustment
> thrusters will be necessary (something like 'Thrust 0.001' in game
terms)
>
> Without applying force (or, to be precise, torque, that is, rotational
> force), an object in space canot change its rate of rotation.
>
> There are several ways to apply torque to an object to point it in a
desired
> direction:
> - Thrusters
> - gravitational forces of moon and planets - too slow to be of
interest in
> the game
> - internally mounted flywheels - interesting in that they are
'stealthy'
and
> quite energy-efficient. In game terms, these should count as 'Thrust
1' or
> so, but only for turning, not for changing speed.
>
> Greetings
> Karl Heinz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
From - Mon Dec 04 11:30:05 2000
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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:50:23 -0800
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Tony Christney <tchristney@home.com>
Subject: Re: [FT] Defsats - next question
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>Karl,
>
>I think you have it solved.  No engines needed just gigantic flywheels
that
>are charged up when things are quiet and run the weapons/turning when
they
>are needed.  Great idea!
>
>Bob Makowsky

It is a great idea, which is why the principle has been used in a great
many of unmanned spacecraft (perhaps nearly all?) The flywheels do not
have to be particularly large, they just need to be able to contain
rotational inertia. One of the best characteristics of this approach
is that you can achieve very precise rotational motion (much better than
reactive thrusters), so would pretty much be a requirement for your
fire control system.

The problem with using the flywheels for a power supply is that you
need to have two counter-rotating wheels in order to prevent the
platform rotating.

As for power requirements, many of the probes currently flying through
the outer solar system (and beyond) use radioactive decay to provide
power. On the other hand, if fusion powerplants can be fit into a
tank...

I find this discussion very interesting. Perhaps I will sit down
and write up my thoughts on how a planet's point defense might be
built.

Tony.
-- 

Tony Christney
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Subject: Re: [FT] Defsats - next question
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Tony,

I also find this interesting.  That and the fact that 1 kw and greater
flywheels are now going into production as UPS systems for largish
applications I think it works out well.

Make sure you add enough point defense though as those "Forts"	are
going to
be sitting still.

Bob Makowsky'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Christney" <tchristney@home.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [FT] Defsats - next question

> >Karl,
> >
> >I think you have it solved.	No engines needed just gigantic
flywheels
that
> >are charged up when things are quiet and run the weapons/turning when
they
> >are needed.	Great idea!
> >
> >Bob Makowsky
>
> It is a great idea, which is why the principle has been used in a
great
> many of unmanned spacecraft (perhaps nearly all?) The flywheels do not
> have to be particularly large, they just need to be able to contain
> rotational inertia. One of the best characteristics of this approach
> is that you can achieve very precise rotational motion (much better
than
> reactive thrusters), so would pretty much be a requirement for your
> fire control system.
>
> The problem with using the flywheels for a power supply is that you
> need to have two counter-rotating wheels in order to prevent the
> platform rotating.
>
> As for power requirements, many of the probes currently flying through
> the outer solar system (and beyond) use radioactive decay to provide
> power. On the other hand, if fusion powerplants can be fit into a
> tank...
>
> I find this discussion very interesting. Perhaps I will sit down
> and write up my thoughts on how a planet's point defense might be
> built.
>
> Tony.
> --
>
> Tony Christney
>
>
From - Mon Dec 04 11:30:07 2000
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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 14:05:20 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: (FT)-Defsats, and some other rambles
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>Defsats
>
>I have one question about building defsats with no drive- where does
the
>power for the weapons systems come from.

Good question, and one not easily answered.

You'll notice that there's no such thing as a reactor or power plant 
in the FT design system.

You can either say that the power needed for Main or FTL drives, 
weapons, etc. comes as part of their cost, or you can say that they 
are included in the hull.

I lean towards the first option. So a Class 1 Beam doesn't actually 
have a MASS of 1, but a Class 1 Beam and its necessary power source 
does - if you see what I mean.

On the other hand, you can "hand wave" at this one all day, arguing 
for either (or totally new) option(s).

Schoon
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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:50:21 -0800
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Tony Christney <tchristney@home.com>
Subject: Re: [FT] Defsats - next question
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This would be possible, but the tidal torque would be so small that
even minor disturbances would be sufficient to destroy the balance.
Even a class 1 beam weapon firing could be enough. I think that the
best arrangement would be spherical. This would mean that the torque
required to rotate the platform in any direction would be the same.
I would think that from an engineering perspective this would be
a very desirable property. It is also the optimal materials to
payload configuration.

>
>How about if we had a barbell-shaped defsat, with the length of the
>bar vertical WRT the ground underneath (i.e., the length of the bar is
>pointing at the center of the planet). Could the lengths and masses
>reasonably be arranged so that tidal forces would keep that bar
>vertical (i.e. the defsat always keeps that end towards the planet)?
>Given that Luna is tidally locked, I'd think it would work on smaller
>bodies.

-- 

Tony Christney
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Subject: Re: [FT] Defsats - next question
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:09:50 -0800
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> A free-floating object in space will always either point in the same
> direction or rotate at a fixed speed around a fixed axis. You could
adjust
> its rotation to fit its orbit and to always point outwards - its
turning
> rate is the same as its orbital period. In practice, small
adjustment
> thrusters will be necessary (something like 'Thrust 0.001' in game
terms)
>
> There are several ways to apply torque to an object to point it in a
desired
> direction:
> - gravitational forces of moon and planets - too slow to be of
interest in
> the game

How about if we had a barbell-shaped defsat, with the length of the
bar vertical WRT the ground underneath (i.e., the length of the bar is
pointing at the center of the planet). Could the lengths and masses
reasonably be arranged so that tidal forces would keep that bar
vertical (i.e. the defsat always keeps that end towards the planet)?
Given that Luna is tidally locked, I'd think it would work on smaller
bodies.
From - Mon Dec 04 11:30:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:17:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca>
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To: "gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Battletech Camo Specs.....
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On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Mark Reindl wrote:

> This may be slightly OT, but I seem to recall that a month or two ago
> someone posted a url for a zip file containing scans of this book.  If
> anyone happens to have the url (or even the file) handy, I would
greatly
> appreciate it.

I have the camo book downloaded, and the following URL:

http://hammer.prohosting.com/~kravak/

but I've not been there in ages.

The other camo resource that I like is Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear camo
page
- see <http://www.dp9.com/Funhouse/camo/camoindex.html> for that one.

Hope that helps,

Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
- http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
From - Mon Dec 04 11:30:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:30:21 -0800
From: Mark Reindl <mreindl@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Battletech Camo Specs.....
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Thanks Brian, I got the Camo specs, but didn't know about the HG page.

Mark

Brian Burger wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Mark Reindl wrote:
>
> > This may be slightly OT, but I seem to recall that a month or two
ago
> > someone posted a url for a zip file containing scans of this book. 
If
> > anyone happens to have the url (or even the file) handy, I would
greatly
> > appreciate it.
>
> I have the camo book downloaded, and the following URL:
>
> http://hammer.prohosting.com/~kravak/
>
> but I've not been there in ages.
>
> The other camo resource that I like is Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear camo
page
> - see <http://www.dp9.com/Funhouse/camo/camoindex.html> for that one.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
> - http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
From - Mon Dec 04 11:30:10 2000
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: 15mm fig scans, includes Frei Korp, citadel Trav
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 22:46:05 -0600
From: Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
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I put up a listing of a bunch of 15mm minis, including scans of some
of my own stuff.  It was primarly to help out some local players, but
I figured heck, it's so hard to find pics of miniatures anywhere, I'd
scan some stuff in.  As I order more, I'll put up more pics where
appropriate.

http://www.cowell.org/~andy/min/15mm/

By the way, if anybody could help id the unknown figures, that'd be
great.
From - Mon Dec 04 11:30:11 2000
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"Bell, Brian K" wrote:

>
> [Bri] Makes sense, but you assume you start the design with
> large weapons first. What if you start with a design of 18 class-1s
and
> want replace them with a all-arc Class-4 beam?

This is disallowed by most engineering conventions, and I will cite an
example:
The B-17 had four engines which produced 900hp each (I may have this
number
wrong).  There is no shortage of engines, today, that produce the
equivalent
power of all four combined.  For the socket scheme, you cannot make
significant changes to the B-17's structure.  How do you connect the
single
large engine to the airframe?  I will admit that this problem was solved
for
the B-47 flying the proposed engine for the AVRO Arrow, but not within
the
socket paradigm (it was a hard welded, semi-permanent conversion that
had
peculiar flight characteristics [due to the thrust not being balanced
from
side to side]).