Re: [Fwd: "Custom" fleets]

> > stiltman@teleport.com wrote:
> > 
>	....Reflex field.
 
> > > One problem:  you don't get to know whether the fields are up
until
> > you've
> > > already fired at them.  That's specifically stated as a rule for
them in
> > the
> > > original entry for them in MT.

> So strike that. I'll go for the Novas. I wonder if/how a Reflex Field
needs
> to change to balance in FT 2.5.Your balance notes make some sense, but
I
> wonder how they'd playtest with FB level ships.

Hard to say.  Cloaking devices can do one of two things, in my
experience.
Used properly, they can be used to choose the terms of battle to allow
the
fleet deploying them (which is probably going to be outgunned head-on)
to
maneuver to their advantage and force the enemy to adjust to them rather
than letting their enemy dictate how they should adjust.  If you're in a
bad position, you can just recloak and maneuver some more.  It makes for
a
somewhat tense game of submarine-and-destroyer, and the person who
doesn't
have the cloaking devices can be fairly easily unnerved by not knowing
what
the cloakers are going to do if they're not used to it.

Used in a more gambling fashion, they can turn the entire game into a
guessing contest.  If someone tries to predict too much about what
you're
going to do about ten turns down the road and set up an oh-so-perfect
ambush, they can put you in a box if you do what they expect and you can
put them in a box if you don't.

I tend to do the former, and keep the amount of things I have to guess
about
to a minimum.  My brother-in-law usually tries to outguess me a little
more
than he should (which is halfway consistent with the second para above).
 My
wife doesn't have very good Mk. I's (as I believe the phrase goes around
here :) and hates keeping track of where cloaked ships are going to be
going
so she doesn't tend to use them.
  
> > > > Rock, paper, scissors. You think I'd throw the same fleet at a
reflex
> > field?

> > > Major assumption problem here:  you don't know if I'm going to fly
> > anything
> > > with a reflex field or not.  ....

> Even _more_ rock/paper/scissors. Do you play with any kind of sensor
rules
> that can give this info before anyone fires?

Yes, we allow people to demand a vague outline of what they're up
against
once they've got some form of scout halfway close to the enemy.  We
probably
wouldn't give this info out from maximum Class 6 beam range, but if
you're
not far outside of more conventional beam range or if you've got
fighters
near the opposition we give it out.  (Sensor rules in FT/MT indicate
36-54"
range, so we tend to loosely follow them.)  You can know that one of
your
enemies has a reflex field if you get within sensor range, but you can't
know whether it's up or not until it's fired upon.

As for whether that constitutes p/r/s... well, if you're using a tactic
that
has an irredeemable weakness, you probably shouldn't bring it to the
table.
This is why we don't tend to fly this sort of thing too often... it
hopes
for too much cooperation out of the other side.

>	> If you see a really large
> > > mass, that _might_ be the version I showed you earlier... or it
might be
> > a
> > > horribly beweaponed monster with class-5 or class-6 beams just to
tick
> > you
> > > off.  :)

> If it were class 5, I wouldn't worry about it. If it were class 6, I'd
have
> to see If I could take it - that might almost be a fair fight.
 
>  I doubt I'd agree to play many games like this, though. You wouldn't
enjoy
> my conceding whenever I thought one of us (either one) had brought a
rock to
> fight paper. I wouldn't have too much fun on either rock or paper side
> (well, at least after the first three times I wrapped your rock), so
would
> opt for another game.

*shrugs*  We just don't over-design things so that they can't deal with
a
broad variety of situations.

> > > This is cinematic movement, remember.  You're not going to fire
the nova
> > cannon
> > > at me at the same time as you're keeping away from me.  You _have_
to be
> > either
> > > facing me or flying towards me to use it.  And against something
that
> > size,
> > > you're not going to do damage anywhere near fast enough to make it
worth
> > it.

> Who needs speed? I can stand still from, what, 75" away and blast at
will.
> 2-12 points a shotx2 Novas with all the time in the world. Can't say
it'd be
> the most fun game, but it'd work.

Side note, perhaps a bit rules-lawyerly:  the FT book states that a ship
firing a nova cannon may not fire _any_ other weapons that round.  We
interpret
this to include other nova cannons, i.e. you can only fire one of them
per
turn.  That makes them pretty inefficient to use on large ships that
have to
shut down a great deal of other effective weapons to fire them.  That,
and
the fact that you can't make any course changes while you're firing it
(i.e.
anyone with even thrust 2 and decent velocity probably can avoid just
one,
though perhaps not more than 1, if it's three turns out) balances out
nova
cannons quite well.

And, FWIW, maximum nova cannon range is only 60" (6" start and 54"
travel
over three turns).

> > > > Aside from a fixed edge being an entirely artificial limitation
in a
> > space
> > > > game, here's four reasons not to play fixed (take a 100x100
field as
> > an
> > > > example): 1) Edge crawlers, 2) Corner squatters,

> > > These two things simply don't happen with us.  We typically play
on a
> > living
> > > room floor, and although we do have a fixed playing space the
edges are
> > not
> > > real specifically defined; .....

> Hm. A "soft" edge is almost worse than a "hard" edge, since it "how
far is
> too far" becomes a matter of opinion rather than fact.

Perhaps.  But like I said, we just don't get into those sorts of
arguments
because no one abuses the edge with the understanding that this sort of
details exploitation would probably earn your ships an ejection from the
game on simple principle alone. :)

> > > >3) Behemoths/fleets with
> > > > kill zones that fill 10-20% of the entire playing field, 4)
Snipers
> > that can
> > > > cover 80% of the playing field at all times.

> > > We don't have much trouble with either of these because closing on
them
> > and
> > > punishing them up close isn't typically that hard.

> It is with thrust 1.

Even with thrust 1, pinning someone against the edge of the board with
Class 3
beams isn't too hard.  If they fly _too_ much faster than that, they're
likely
deficient in some area or other that can be exploited.	You can't have
speed,
firepower, _and_ resilience all on the same ship.  :)

> > > > > We simply don't have people deliberately try to abuse the
borders.
 
> > > See other post.  I've used Oerjan Velocities in my games before,
to
> > great
> > > effect.  I'm just not going to use them on _all_ of my ships too
often.

> Then you're opponents don't seem to be learning from you (E.g. the KV
should
> know before starting not to suicide charge a Plansma barage). That
can't be
> too fun, or challenging.

Well, my wife simply took a guess that she wasn't going to be able to
outguess
my plasma shots well enough that I wouldn't eventually wear her down
without
her being able to get as many shots in as she did.  As it was, she
brought the
Super Orb down past double threshold before I was even able to do
significant
damage to her.

> > > > Semantics, semantics. I call it taking advantage of the space.
> > Conversely,
> > > > as pointed out above, spining dreadplanet 20" (even 30") away
from one
> > edge
> > > > is effectively an abuse of the fixed edge.

> > > Doesn't usually happen.  The fighters usually decide the game well
> > before it
> > > gets to this point, and if they don't, the dreadplanet itself
usually
> > goes
> > > and runs down enemy carriers ship-to-ship if it gets
out-fightered.

> A thrust 1 ship can't run down anything except a starbase. Even a
thrust 2
> eggshell carrier that starts out of range can stay out of range as
long as
> it wants.

_If_ it's on a floating field rather than some place where a planetary
system
is in contest.	Though even on a fixed one, you can FTL out if you just
want
to preserve the ship.  Yes, our rules generally force you to bug out if
you
can't fight something relatively head-on at some point in the game.  We
like
it that way.

[Komarov vs. "dreadplanet" with assumption that no Class 4 beams will
get
tweaked onto the latter]

> Of course, I made that assumption. I wasn't playing
tweak/countertweak, and
> I wasn't planning on rehashing that particular take, since it wasn't
my
> original idea.

No prob.  However, I think I've probably made my point and beaten it to
death:
the dreadplanet can potentially make a mess, and individual ways of
stopping
it in my particular field are only going to force it to make minor
tweaks,
whereas you have to really gimmick yourself up to particularly scare it.
-- 
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 The Stilt Man		      stiltman@teleport.com
   http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
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