Re: M113 APCs and Things

"Glover, Owen" wrote:

> I see what you are getting at with the arty; I also meant that we use
> only the rules as written for the troops buttoned up. Dealing with
> exposed troops is going to be different in a Vietnam/WWII era. In SG
> the vehicle crew have less of a requirement to expose themselves; even
> head and shoulder and can take advantage of the sensors and
> elecrto-optics of the vehicles.

    I don't see how the effects are going to be different at all.  The
tactical requirements place more importance in being able to operate
without being buttoned up, but that has no real effect on how HE rounds
will behave if you decide not to do so. <g>

> In your Vietnam period, the Crew Comd and driver is going to be
> sitting up for 99.5% of the time. Even if teh vehicle is caught in teh
> casualty radius of the round and doesn't penetrate the vehicle hull
> there is a different and HIGHER chance that teh exposed/partially
> exposed crew will suffer wounds from shrapnel. And this is where I'm
> suggesting the Hard Cover.

    OK, as I mentioned before, I'm all for going with the one shift for
partially exposed crew or passengers.  If you're waist is actually in
the track or tank, you should get that die shift.  If only your head is
exposed, or have some other kind of additional armor, like the ACAV
commander, I'm all for an additional shift.  I'm not sure that I'd give
that extra shift to the M60 gunners for heavy weapons, though.

> In Position is where he is hunkered down and looking over the gun
> sights. Two very different target aspects for your shrapnel effect
> indeed.

    OK, this where I'm not in agreement.  Here's why.  Let's say we go
with the third possible die shift.  Let's also say that we give our
track commander a flak jacket.	Now, I've got to give him a base armor
of d6.	If I shift it up three, he's at d12 armor: the same as being
inside the track!  I'm just not comfortable with having a guy sitting
halfway out of the track and getting the same armor benefits as being
inside.

> So, to re-iterate....
>
> The vehicle and troops INSIDE suffer results of Arty Impact vs Veh
> Armour as for Minor hit.
>
> Exposed Crew and Riders are potential casualties from the external
> shrapnel effect.

    Right, like I mentioned before, if the vehicle penetration doesn't
occur, I'm all for having exposed crew roll for personal armor
penetration with up to two die shifts.

> Just trying to give a more era specific feel.

    I appreciate that.	I think we've almost got a reasonable solution.
After we get this out of the way, I'd like to take a more detailed look
at some of the small arms of the era.

-Mike

--
Michael Sarno

http://vietnam.isonfire.com
Check out the Charlie Company Discussion Group:
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skirmish wargame of infantry combat in Vietnam 1965-1972

"The world has no room for cowards.
 We must all be ready to toil, to suffer, to die.
 And yours is no less noble because no drum beats
 before you when you go out in your daily battlefields.
 And no crowds shout about your coming when you
 return from your daily victory or defeat."
 -Robert Louis Stevenson