Re: Medtech a la Los

Adrian Johnson wrote:

> Well, first of all - deep down I don't really like the idea of clone
armies
> very much.  As I said in an earlier post, it just doesn't fit my
> "aesthetic" view of the GZG universe.  But that aside, Los raised the
> interesting point "they'd make great badguys!" - which I agree with.
>

Yeah for the record I don't like 'em either, but when someone comes up
with an
idea, it needs to be run with so feasibility can be fleshed out, as well
as just
for the mental exercise to be had from the discussion. The brain power
on this
list is amazing to me, you guys can take a lump of clay and make
anything out of
it.

Also it's very true that the clones themselves probably wouldn't put up
with the
whole cannon fodder thing unless they had their minds altered in some
way.
(Perhaps by enhancing certain aspects of their belief systems like duty,
honor,
religion? (Adrian's example of Iranian kids) Or just implanting an
imperative to
follow whatever commander X orders them to do to the letter?

>
> Thinking of themselves as expendible?  Hmm.  If they are socialized
with a
> moral structure that recognizes the idea of personal value and self
worth
> as an individual, then expendibility/personal value would have some
> meaning.  So don't let them socialize that way - starting from age
zero.
>

Well, if we go with the original premise that the clones are just having
their
brains remapped to from some master imprint, which is getting updated
with each
recent operation's experience you really start running into
"contamination"
troubles (contamination being ideas of freedom, self preservation, what
happened
to Joe and Bob to the left and right of me yesterday, etc)

>
> If you have to provide them with some kind of moral framework, then
give
> them a very basic one that justifies the kind of behavior you want out
of
> them.
>

I imagine with the level of sophistication required to grow them the way
you
want them in the first place, you could probably do that pretty easy.

> >b) they're not mentally developed enough to have such higher
thoughts,
> >these clones are grown flat out and there's no mental room for them
to
> >start to grasp the higher and abstract concepts which lead to
independent
> >thoughts, but in counterpoint to this I'd have to say that they're
> >obviouslly developed enough to take in basic field training, so
they'd be
> >advanced enough to have thoughts of independence - any parent of a
child
> >that's hit 2+ will tell you independent thoughts come early, tough
(loud,
> >and often in the middle of supermarkets and toy sotores when the word
No is
> >mentioned), but non-the-less early, much earlier then when they could
grasp
> >battlefield drills.
>

Of course something that  may be getting missed: Successful performance
in
battle, particularly running a squad or anything higher, is as much an
art form
as it is a technical skill. It requires sophisticated reasoning, higher
thought
processes, imagination, creativity etc. etc. (It's like playing chess,
except
add in the interpersonal skills  needed to get people to do things they
don't
want to under fire, the ability to think clearly and quickly through
fatigue,
fear, pain and discomfort, and the ability to balance rational civilized
reasoning with the more baser animal functions of fight or flight to get
things
done.)	Civilians easily dismiss soldiers as automatons (not saying you
guys
do), but that's far from the truth in many ways. Unless you have just
ridiculous
sheer numbers which has got to be cost/resource prohibitive in some way.
Well
that is if you're to be successful. So our obedience process may end up
getting
in the way of effectiveness.  Unless you are gong to have a different
class at
the squad leader and higher level..

> Having said that, I wonder if given the right infrastructure and
political
> commitment, a nation (of bad guys, obviously) might be able to do
something
> like this.  It would make for a really high motivation to beat them,
that's
> for sure.  I'd have very few moral qualms about fighting if they were
the
> enemy...

It's such a complex process, lots of humans, brains, sophisticated
technology,
it just begs for chaos theory to get in there and fuck it all up. Then
the next
thing you know all the guys in white lab coats have electrical prods
shoved up
their asses and the clones are dancing gleefully around them. (reminds
me of the
Ork history from 40k).

g'nite
Los