Re: [FT] Gunboats - points cost??

>On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, -MWS- wrote:

>> I'd like some opinions on what you'd all consider a "fair"
>> points cost for the following:
>
>i'm going to look at this by trying to construct an equivalent starship
to
>do the job.

>> Gunboats are large, FTL-capable fighters.  They are capable of
extended,
>> independent patrols and are effective at anti-shipping attacks.

>sounds like a starship to me, not a fighter. the point of fighters is
that
>they don't have extended operations capabilities. starships, on the
other
>hand, are specifically designed to be large (relative to fighters),
>FTL-capable, capable of extended independent patrols and effective at
>anti-shipping attacks.

FTL fighters have been discussed before, but in a different context -
basically
they had almost negligible FTL endurance - enough to jump in from an
assembly
point, allowing them to start the game on the board, and FTL out if
necessary,
to be picked up by the carrier that also makes a single jump out.

The problem is that the FTL endurance concept only really becomes
workable in a
campaign style (or at least scenario-based) game.  The gunboats, by not
requiring hangarage in the fleet, provides a potentially huge cost
savings for
the capabilities it brings.  (similar to the discussion on ground-based
fighters).  Operationally they have a disadvantage of limited range, but
you
won't normally see that, as it doesn't apply once you are on the FT
playing
field...

I do not know of a good way to reconsile this.

>> 2) They mass 3 each for hanger space requirements.

>hmm. i don't think you could get hull, drive, ftl, PDS, one-shot torps
and
>screen into mass 3 on a ship. since i can't get Armageddon Outfitter to
>work on this machine ("javascript error line 313: undefined is not a
>number" - i must have an old version of javascript), i can't check
though.

Well, you can't fit hull, drive, and a one-shot torp onto a torpedo
fighter
either, except you can. (re-read that if it made no sense).  If theses
are
constructed of fighter-class materials and systems, then maybe this is
doable.
BTW, unless I totally missed something, the Gunboat has no PDS system,
just a
double-die Fighter Beam Weapon and the 2 single shot torpedoes.

>> 4) Their endurance factor is 12.
>
>ships would have unlimited endurance, but 12 is as good as in any one
>battle.

But if you tied the FTL range to endurance (2-3 per jump perhaps), then
the
'usable' endurance changes dramatically, again though, this is at the
operational level.

>> 6) A gunboat's 'beam' weapon uses 2 dice for its attack.  This attack
may
>> not be split between targets - a gunboat group must still attack a
single
>> target like fighters do.
>
>like a twin PDS with some restrictions.

Or just a twin Fighter Beam Weapon (FBW)

>> 7) Each gunboat carries two 'torpedos' that may be used instead of
its
>> beams for an attack in a turn.  Each gunboat can launch only a single
>> torpedo in a single attack run - the torpedo hits on a 3+ on 1d6 and
does
>> 1d6 of damage each.
>
>one-shot pulse torpedoes. you do not mention range.

Actually, 2 loads for a torpedo fighter, with slightly better to-hit (I
think it
should be returned to the 4+ to-hit for Torpedo Fighters) Since there is
no
different range specified for them, they keep the same 6" attack range
as normal
fighters.  however, the gunboat could presumably launch 1 torpedo and
fire its
FBW at the same target in a single attack run.

Personally I would prefer to replace the torpedoes with single-die
sub-packs, as
Mike Wikan proposed may moons ago.

>> 8) Gunboats ignore rolls of '4' when defending against fighters, PDS,
and
>> Class 1 beams.
>
>level 1 screen.

Yes, though I think it was defined this way to address the fact that PDS
is
still capable of doing normal damage.  PDS vs ships (the only targets
previously
screenable) is 1 pt on a roll of 6, but against gunboats they are 1 on a
5, or 2
on a 6.

>>  Unlike fighters, however, Class 1 beams used for PDS get a
>> normal 2 kills + reroll when used against gunboats (rationale:
gunboats are
>> considerably sturdier than fighters, so fighter & PDS fire is less
>> effective.  They're also less nimble, so Class 1 PDS is *more*
effective.)
>
>just like ships!

So is this opening up to where they can be targetted by other anti-ship
weapons?
they are half the size of a scout/courier type ship, though a bit more
maneuverable.  But I don't really think we want to open that can of
worms.

>> 9) Strategically, a gunboat may make 4 FTL jumps before jump-engine
>> refueling is required.  A gunboat may replace one or both torpedo
launchers
>> with extra jump tanks - each jump tank so added extends the gunboat's
range
>> by 2 jumps.
>
>a ship wouldn't have any such limits, that i'm aware of. they should
do,
>though!

Nice touch with the fuel tanks, and yes, ships should have some sort of
range
limitation, but again, that is Operational level and thus hard to pull
into the
game with any form of consistency.  Though refeuling seems to dictate
the they
operate with a tender of some sort for all but the shortest missions
outside
home territory.

>> Just as an initial SWAG, I'm thinking that the points cost would be
>> somewhere between 20 and 30 points per gunboat, making a group cost
between
>> 80 and 120 points.  Opinions, please?

>well, i think that might be a bit much stuff to pack into such a small
>space. however, i think i would reach the same conclusion for any other
>type of fighter! let's check: standard fighter would have PDS, drive,
>hull. that wouldn't fit in mass 1. it must be that fighters are built
with
>less german approaches - everything is lighter, minimised, more
fragile,
>etc, lacking the solidity of a real ship. thus, your proposal looks
>roughly ok. i would have thought that gunboats would cost about 3x a
>normal fighter (well, maybe; if it weren't for either the torps or the
>ftl).

Well said in general, I may have to muse more on small craft
construction.

Jared