Re: (OT) Rules "inspiration" (was [OT] Bring and Battle

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Ground Zero Games wrote:

> To answer your question, No. (Just to get that one straight....)

Ok. Just checking if you were still sane :-)
 
> Shockforce was used as an example of a game that DOES have
> a number of the same elements we used. 

Frankly, I fail to see (a blatant) connection there. "High roll/card
beats
low roll/card" has been around for ages. So's alternating activating
units. 

> BATTLE ROAR/RAGE (sorry, can't find
> my copy right now and still can't remember the title properly), on the
> other hand, appears to be quite blatantly lifted from DS/SG because it
> combines a large number of the same mechanisms that interact in the
same
> way.

Can't comment on that.

> To me, the FMA "system" (that, in modified form as appropriate, forms
the
> core of DSII and SGII) relies for its "identity" on a number of key
> mechanisms, and they way they interact. These include:
... 
> 4) Chartless resolution for combat etc. based on mainly unmodified die
> scores, with high-beats-low.

How is DSII chartless? The chit pull is just another way to roll results
from a (admittedly huge) chart. Not that the chit pull is a particularly
new innovation...
 
> I am unaware of any game published before we brought out DSII that
combines
> these particular elements in the same or a similar way; if you know of
one,
> I'd be interested to hear of it.

All in the same package? None that I recall right now. But separately
they've been around.

> At the end of the day, I guess the real question is at what point does
a
> collection of mechanisms (very few of which are individually
"original", as
> with so many games on the market almost everything has been done
before
> somewhere) actually become definable as a "Rules System", and
therefore
> become an intellectual property of the designer and thus "protectable"
in
> an ethical if not a legal sense. I don't think I've got an answer to
this
> one. Have you?

Legally, you're on shaky ground. And I'm glad you are. Because if you
weren't, T$R might have sued the entire gaming industry out of existance
back in the 80's. GW still might (just look at some of the absurd claims
in the Demonblade case). WotC already pretty much did with the CCG
industry. 

Maybe that's why game houses like to tie their products strongly to
easily
identifiable (and copyrightable) game worlds.

Is it bad to have derivatives? I love Chipco's Fantasy Rules!, which
quite
frankly is DB* fantasy done right. If PhilB, with his well known love of
fantasy gaming, had had a stranglehold on opposed rolls, FR! wouldn't
be.
But FR! is a different game. It's sufficiently different than even HotT,
Phil's shot at fantasy DB, to rate as an original work IMO.

I think the key issue is added value. Nothing is created in a vacuum
anymore, but combining existing elements in a new and unique way, or
significantly adding something new is what sets the new original works
apart from the ripoffs.

A lame copy will always be a lame copy. Sadly sometimes a lame copy gets
the publicity while the original lies forgotten, but c'est la vie...

Not having seen the Battle-whatever I can't say for sure, but it might
have redeeming value if it did something new with the system instead of
just renaming DFFG as Dragon Breath.

As a software designer, my ideas are constantly "ripped off". Frankly, I
don't mind -- haven't stumbled upon an exact copy yet, and probably
never
will in my narrow field -- and I return the favor when I see a
particularly good way of doing something. But I did mind when some twit
copied one of my web pages and added lame ads in the text... 

Let me throw back a question: If I devise a rules mechanic that produces
statistically identical outcome with a published mechanic, but using a
different execution method, am I infringing on someone's intellectual
rights, legal or ethical? 

(IMO, no. And this is pretty much the basis for patent law.)

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