Re: GZG DS2 Mikko: Genres for DS2.

[in part this is a reply to mikko; i missed his earlier post. sorry.]
 ---- andrew martin wrote: 
> Mikko Kurki-Suonio <maxxon@swob.dna.fi> wrote:
> >On Sun, 13 Sep 1998 tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:
> >> this is because the HS SPDS is not a generic system > >> fault of
DS2 - it is impossible in *any* system, because it simply does
> >> not make any sense.
> >I can not agree. Playing *in* the Slammers universe does NOT
necessarily
> >mean playing *with* Hammer's Slammers (or the top-notch tech they
have).

true.

> >Take the indig forces in the final battle of The Warrior. They were
> >warring before either merc force showed up with powerguns and other
fancy
> >stuff. You might want to play pure hashemites vs. whoever-they-were.
> >These forces *did* utilize GMS, apparently to some effect.
>     Then you need rules to adequately simulate wire guided missile
systems
> and laser designated missile systems. You still need to disallow DSII
GMS.

maybe, or (going out on a limb here) you need to seriously beef up PDS
or ECM. although the rulebook says DS2 missiles are smart
fire-and-forget, the rules themselves do not. they just say that they
are missiles; it is not possible to infer smartness from the rules
alone. this is a slightly odd point, but what i mean is that you don't
necessarily need to change the GMS rules but add new interception rules.

how about APSW can be used as ECM by firing it at the firer? any
suppressed infantry unit automatically loses any missiles in flight? not
quite sure how to extend this to vehicle-launched GMS.

incidentally, how was this handled in HS? what if i outfitted a slammer
panzer with ATGW: you would have to engage me with your main gun, and if
i had proper training i would ignore it and let my driver try and evade.
and hope i killed you first.

of course, this doesn't help with bring-n-battle, but i stand by my
earlier statement on that.

> >Perhaps the change in warfare brought in by the appearance of the
mercs is
> >*exactly* the thing you want to "simulate", playing some battles with
> >indig only forces and then some with merc support added.
>     The "you" here is "Mikko" not "Tom".

ah, but on the internet, how can you be so sure ... :-) i think this
would be an interesting campaign.

>     Actually Tom didn't say that! You did. Don't put words in his
mouth or
> text in his e-mail!

suddenly andrew seems to have become my big brother :-) i feel a little
less manly for this, but i can take it. it's the 90s.

> >No. The right answer is to properly cost the Slammers SPDS (and other
> >equipment).
> >Once you get the points cost right, there's no reason Slammers
couldn't
> >play in a pickup game.

[i assume this means to cost them in the context of regular DS2 and thus
allow them in any DS2 games]

no. this would mean either (a) properly costing every single piece of sf
warfare equipment ever invented, in case anyone wanted to use it, or (b)
providing a points-cost calculating system which would work for
anything. i don't think either are practical. besides, the value of a
piece of equipment often depends on the other equipment in use.

unless you want PV on the basis of real material cost, but that is
impossible as real costs vary from universe to universe. the reason HS
never fase DS2 F+F GMS is that electronics are expensive in the HS
universe. they are cheap in the DS2 universe or any reasonable extension
of our modern world (free digital cellphone when you open a Barclays
student account, anyone?).

> Properly costing wire-guided and laser-designated missiles is more the
> issue.

fair enough. if you brought HS forces into a vanilla DS2 game (eg at a
B+B) you would get smoked by GMS which is a century more advanced than
what the HS are prepared for.

>     Appropriate limitations would still have to apply to the opponent
> forces. Like no GMS, only wire-guided or laser designated missile
systems.

absolutely not! if you want to take a no-ECM no-PDS HS force up against
GMS-armed vanilla DS2 in a B+B, you deserve everything you get.

> >If they still get to face a GMS-only force, well, isn't combined
arms,
> >variety and all that exactly what the realism advocates always keep
> >preaching about?
>     A GMS armed force facing a HS genre force would slaughter the HS
force.
> There would be no laser designators aimed at the HS force. GMS would
be
> fired from VTOLs performing pop-ups. The GMS would be coming in at
> supersonic speeds with no noticeable launching flash. The HS force
would not
> be able to knock down the GMS as their satellites won't be able to
detect
> the launcher's flash in time before the missile strikes. Remember
that, in
> DSII, turret down and hull down modifiers don't apply versus GMS
attacks.
> Only ECM and PDS can defend, due to the speed the missile travels at.
Also
> remember that while iridium protects well against powergun shots, it
defends
> the same as normal armour against shaped charge warheads.

right. what i said, only said first and in more detail.

Tom

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