Re: SV: FTL Mines

Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> 

> > 1) Lets face it, where/how do you hide a mine in space?
> 
> How long engagement envelope does the mines have? How good stealth can
you
> equip them with - ie, can you make them difficult to detect at ranges
> longer than their own engagement range? If so, you might be able to
hide
> them.
> 
> But you miss the main point with mines: they're there not as much to
harm
> the enemy as to make him go somewhere else - ie, either where your
heavy
> guns are waiting for him, or where your vulnerable units aren't :-)
> 
> > 2) If you can hide a mine in space, the same tech that hides the
> >    mine from detection can be used to hide a ship from the mine!
> 
> Except, perhaps, that the ship has more active emissions than the mine
-
> especially if it is trying to maneuver...
> 
> > 3) Mines in orbit around a planet can cause a lot of bad PR when
> >    the mine falls out of orbit.
> 
> Not if they don't have warheads. These FTL mines cause damage by
jumping
> into hyper, not by a bomb - and if you program them to engage targets
in a
> certain size bracket (or have IFF gear on your planet <g>) they'll
simply
> burn up when they fall out of orbit. I doubt they'll accidentally
drift
> away from the planet :-/
> 
> > 4) Consider the amount of mass that would have to go into a mine-
> >    field around the solar system (or even a few planets) and buying
> >    a few thousand superdreadnaughts is much more cost effective.
> 
> Again, how long engagment range does the mine have? I see no real
point in
> surrounding an entire star system with a mine shell (...the enemy
might
> jump to a point inside the mines, depending on your background...) but
as a
> deterrent from getting too close to a planet, fine. You wouldn't need
that
> many either, I think - a couple of hundred, provided they can damage
ships
> far enough away... and don't tell me the mines cost more than ten
> superdreadnoughts each <g>
> 
> Oerjan Ohlson
> SDS Minefield expert :-)
> 
> "Life is like a sewer.
> What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
> - Hen3ry

Oerjan,
     I will try to address some of the points you have brought up,
but the bottom line from a personal point of view is 'MINES IN SPACE
ARE SILLY...   Now back to a somewhat more rational discussion.
     Presumptions on the construction of a mine:
1) The mine has an active power source.
2) The mine has one mass or close to it.
3) The mine by its very nature does not have standard sensors or 
   IFF, some type of passive sensor (Mass detector) is the sensor
   of choice for the mine.

POINT 1)
The mine must have an active power source or it would freeze in 
space.	 This means the stealth aspect becomes meaningless, even
if the mine were totally (normal active) sensor invisable the mine
would light up like a candle in the dark on a IR sensor.
POINT 2) 
You might be able to make an argument against this but I like it.
Point 3)
Standard or advanced sensors and IFF will not be found on a mine
because they are active devices which would pinpoint the location
of the mine instantly.	 

Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> But you miss the main point with mines: they're there not as much to
harm
> the enemy as to make him go somewhere else - ie, either where your
heavy> guns are waiting for him, or where your vulnerable units aren't
XXXXXXX
     Your theory on the use of mines is from a different text than
mine.	My rules state that the minefield is placed to prevent or 
slow the closure of the enemy to some stratigic objective that cannot
be bypassed.  (If I have done my job as a commander, the enemy will
be forced to cross the minefield under fire of my fleet.)  JTL
XXXXXXXX
Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Not if they don't have warheads. These FTL mines cause damage by
jumping
> into hyper, not by a bomb - and if you program them to engage targets
in a
> certain size bracket (or have IFF gear on your planet <g>) they'll
simply
> burn up when they fall out of orbit
XXXXXXXXXX
By the way, the 'jump mine' is a completely useless concept,
everyone (included myself) has forgotten that the jump engine
must be primed the turn before it is enguaged.
(Needless to say the mine will not survive to jump if facing
a warship.)   JTL
XXXXXXXXX
Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Again, how long engagment range does the mine have? I see no real
point in
> surrounding an entire star system with a mine shell (...the enemy
might
> jump to a point inside the mines, depending on your background...)
XXXXXXXXXX
     If the enemy jumped into the system, they have jumped into
a gravity well and will suffer accordingly.  
     I realize that I did not bother to compute the number of mines
necessary to surround a planet with mines, I didn't have that much
interest.
     To deter an attacking force with a planetary minefield you must
set the outer limit of the mines beyond the range of the enemy fleets
weapons.   In FT this is a minimum of 54", but lets say 60" for fun.
The minefield would have to be at least 10 rows deep, and a minumum
of of 6" between mines.   The minefield now stretches from 30" to 90"
above the planets surface, and if one does Pie*D for each ring the
number of mines cn be determined.   Or calculate the surface area
of all mine shells and divide by the surface area of a single mine
area to determine the total number of mines. (No way I am going to
do this.) 
     Minefields in space simply have to many holes in both theory 
and practice (Yes the pun was intended.) for them to be of any 
value. (Other than as a game device to play navy.)

This may come across more harshly than intended, if so, I am sorry.

Bye for now,
John L.