Re: Historical DD's and torpedos - was Re: [OFFICIAL] Missile Ideas

> That's what I meant by overtaken... (and I should have said "slow for
a
> cruiser").  They were also a LONG way outside the Treaty limits, more
like
> 14000 tons than the grudgingly-admitted 12000.  
  ^^^^^

I'd like to know your source of information for this estimate, as I am
attempting to write some rules for WW2 navel engagements myself, and
constantly run across the problem of inconsistent data.  So far I have
the
Graff Spee weighing in at 10500 - 16000 tones, but the figure of 12,100
is
most often quoted, and by what I have generally come to regard as the
most
reliable sources...
> 
> Go to it!  That's more than half the fun!  (My prediction would be
Alaska
> crushes the Graf Spee like a bug, and is never hit herself, while
Salem
> beats GS and suffers moderate to heavy damage...)  Interestingly, in
the
> 1930s the naval wargames pioneer was criticised when, in a
hypothetical
> battle, 3 RN cruisers beat a pocket battleship!
>
Hey they won.... kinda.... :)
 
> BTW, this isn't really off topic for FT if you think of the tactical
> considerations.  The Graf Spee can't win a stern chase (3x11" against
6x8"
> with very rapid fire) so she might as well try to get her fore turret
into
> action.  Salem then has to decide whether to charge in to close the
range as
> fast as possible, or more slowly to get HER aft turret into action. 
It is
> 
I'm not sure about your analysis there.  First Graf Spee is firing
first,
and may well cause sufficient damage, before the 8" guns get close
enough
to fire to remove the threat. Second is the much quoted "rapid fire". 
In
practice, due to amunition limmitations, gunners often waited for thier
previous shots to fall, in order to spot from it for the next shot.  In
this case, it doesn't make any differance how fast your guns 'could'
fire....

Close the range a bit more and GS could have a fair crack at a torpedo
attack herself.  Agreed it isn't ideal with the chasing ship being a
small
profile target, but the closure is > 70 kts....

This BTW is real interesting in FT (just to try to bring the subject a
little closer to home).  I have been trying for a while to simulate the
effect of aspect and speed on missile and torpedo hits, as to hit a ship
pointing directly toward/away from you is a darn site harder than a nice
juicey broadside.

> generally agreed, by the way, that the Graf Spee was not especially
well
> handled in the River Plate action. 

Agreed.... Using every set of navel rules I have found since GS wins the
engagement, but suffers moderate/light damage.	If GS attacks and
finishes
targets, she easily outclasses her opponents.  But that's the fog of war
for you, something that is near impossible to recreate in a wargame.
Langsdorf clearly believed he was outmatched, or that reinforcements
were
on their way, and tried to preserve his ship.  This is what wargammers
cannot grasp....  Any wargamer would have kept shooting till all the
guns
were out and then make best speed for a ram :)

I'd love to hear any contributions as to how to disuade players from
this
willful destruction of property, without regard for life.

-Entropy