Re: DS2: stats for Epic miniatures

Haven't had computer access over the weekend, so this is a bit late:

Since I have lots of GW troops (some 14000 (GW epic) points of Eldar,
and 
about as many Orks - though most of the Orks are as yet unpainted) I
just 
had to convert them to DSII <g> I've tried to stay fairly close to the 
way the armies play in Space Marine, though.

On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Andy Skinner wrote:

> 1) Leave out the difficult things for now.  Bikes, wheeled or
> jet, for example.  Are they transportation for infantry?  Are
> they an infantry class, or size 1 vehicles?

I made my Jetbikes 'size 1/2 vehicles' - ie, 1 stand of two bikes count
as
one size 1 vehicle with lots of APSWs; my Vypers are size 1 vehicles in
their own right.  Both are soft-skinned. This makes them lethal against
infantry - but they are vulnerable to infantry fire as well as to
vehicles
(...not that they're that easy to hit, though <g>). The problem is that
missiles get pretty powerful against them... and I don't quite see those
missiles targetting individual bikes.

> Walkers, too, though I'll take a look at other people's walker rules.

War Walkers and Dreadnoughts seem to work pretty OK per the DSII rules -

they are pretty to kill in Space Marine too :( Knights and Titans are a 
bit too vulnerable; the only way to make these things viable is to get 
really powerful protective systems (like Void Shields or Holofields) for

them. (...which is, of course, exactly what GW did!) My Holofield
variant 
gives the Eldar Titan a secondary die:

1D12 if the Titan is 'evading' (but then of course it can't fire - yes,
I
     allow Eldar walkers to use evasive movement as long as their
holofields
     are intact)
1D10 if the Titan moved during its last activation
1D8  if the Titan did not move during its last activation - usually this
     only happens if it used opportunity fire.

In addition, this die is the ECM die used against missiles. OTOH, a 
Phantom has no PDS... If you use the points system, this holoflage
should 
cost somewhere around 100 points per size.

Yes, Phantoms are fairly tough to kill. They should be (now if my 
opponents could stop drawing a 'BOOM' every time they get a hit...), 
considering the cost - somewhere near 1800 - 2000 points
(coincidentally, 
about the cost of 10 tracked medium tanks such as Predators or Leman
Russ 
<g>)

> 2) I'll design things by the way I see them, not necessarily
> trying to get the same effect that GW used.  For instance, I'll
> use skimmers as grav vehicles, but they won't get pop-ups.

I added the pop-up for (high-tech) skimmers... at an increased cost, of 
course. Not that the added cost means much, considering the high 
precision of the DSII points system <g> The reason I did was to retain 
the 'Eldary' hit-and-hide feeling (...since those Falcon IFWs obviously 
have fixed guns...)

> They
> look like things that skim over the surface, not like things that
> jump up in the air.  VTOLs will do that (maybe thunderhawk, maybe
> nightwing).

I made the Nightwings aerospace fighters instead...

> 3) I'm adding Renegade Legion tanks to the Eldar forces (what
> I'm just calling the Advanced Alien force), but I need to leave
> out the smaller ones.  I just couldn't stretch the vehicle
> classes over the range I wanted for the smaller ones.

Oh? I don't have any clue about vehicle stats in RL, so I just cobbled
up
stats for the RL plastics in Space Marine; the light vehicles became Sz
2
(although I'm condsidering making the APC Sz 1 instead - fast transport
for single Aspect squads...), and the bigger vehicles Sz 3. The Tempest
becomes a Sz 4 grav tank with HEL/5 w/ superior firecon (...about as
lethal as twin-mounted HEL/4 w/ enhanced firecon, but takes far less
space), APFC (ie, shuriken catapults), LAD and Basic PDS (the Shuriken
Cannon takes both roles), and Enhanced ECM. Huge Imperial tanks could be

size 5 (or possibly 6), and my Ork battle fortresses are size 5.

> 4) Don't follow the recommendation of limiting number of weapons
> to vehicle size.  (Though I'm not sure this rule would come into
> play very often.)

This tends to be self-regulating unless you really like small weapons,
though. You just can't fit that many weapons (except APSWs) on a small
vehicle; and I wouldn't want to fit only class 1 or 2 weapons on a
bigger
tank. I don't count infantry teams as weapons for this rule, though; it
makes GWs heavily-armed IFWs possible. 

> 5) Allow breaking of the rule that a vehicle may only have a weapon
> of vehicle size + 1.	If it fits in the capacity, allow it.  Though
> I'd leave it as a guideline.	I'm thinking of the vindicator, for
> instance.

Well, this is only a recommendation in DSII anyway... a strong one, but 
still. As for the Vindicator, I'm thinking more of a direct-fire
artillery 
vehicle - a shell that big ought to be able to flatten houses (although
I 
don't remember if it can in SM).

> 6) Allow multiple firecons.  Well, some way of shooting more than
> one thing at a time.	Maybe I ought to try it first, to see if I
> care about this, but GW miniatures have tons of weapons on 'em,
> and I have trouble not seeing them shoot as many as possible.

I've allowed vehicles with multiple APSWs to target more than one 
infantry team (helps no end against orcs! :), but not against vehicles. 
(...of course, I don't have any of those triple-gun Imperial tanks...)

> I've heard of some people just allowing vehicles to fire every
> weapon, but I think there should be some cost.  DS2 allows
> oversize vehicles to have more than 1 firecon.  You just pay
> more points, and it allows you to fire more weapon systems.
> How about allowing any vehicle to buy more than one weapon
> system of any quality, and every weapon has to be assigned
> to one firecon?

I'd also say it requires more space, although the rules don't say so. 
Just like the 'escorts have 1 firecon, cruisers 2 etc' rule from FT.
What 
would be reasonable? Mass 1 per extra firecon?

>  You pay for each firecon points according
> to the largest weapon assigned to it.  You still may only
> be able to fire one weapon per firecon, but if you want
> to pay the points, you can put a firecon per weapon on.
> Firing systems down would take out all weapons on that
> firecon. Any thoughts on this?  If you've made the SM to DS
> conversion, how did you handle this?
 
On my Titan designs (Phantoms, size 7, 1 Superior and 2 Enhanced 
firecons) I never bothered with assigning a specific weapon to 
a certain firecon; instead, any firecon could direct any (combination 
of) weapons. On the bigger Gargants (Greater and Mega-) (which I 
classify as multi-sectioned) each armed section has one firecon to
direct 
the weapons of that section.

> 8) Minor movement changes: Medium tracked, halfway between
> slow and fast in cost and speed.

For my Eldar, I added:

Fast grav (Base Movement Factor 20) (ie, Jetbikes) (only available for
Sz 1)
Fast walkers (BMF 15) (...those Bright Stallions, Revenants and perhaps 
 Warhounds...)
Anti-grav (or similar) weapon platforms (Tarantulas, Rapiers, Eldar Las-
and 
 Vibro- cannon; I treat them as soft-skinned size 1 vehicles with 
 non-powered infantry mobility)... 

> 9) Think about the roles of things before I start.  The
> Advanced Alien race (Eldar) will use lasers, for example.
> I need to design stats that use point defense and area defense
> and ECM--it would be easy to forget those as I start out.

Missile infantry (read: GW support troops) with Basic firecon vs
vehicles 
with basic or enhanced PDS seem to work pretty well. Remember that HEL
is 
MUCH less powerful than GWs lasers if the enemy uses ablative armour 
(well, otherwise too...)!

> 10) Most importantly--write the stats down on vehicle cards,
> so you don't lose 'em and have to do it again!

Or as a computer file. One day I'll do it... once I've found my missing 
stats :/

Oerjan Ohlson

"Father, what is wrong?"
"My shoes are too tight. But it does not matter, because
 I have forgotten how to dance."
- Londo Mollari