RE: [GZG] Re: Points systems

Again you are taking the example to the extreme.  In this case, the
mission is known at the beginning of the game, which is to score more VP
than the opponent.  The details of which exact ships are worth what VP
are hidden, but a) you know the total VP the opposing fleet is worth, b)
you know how many ships he has - this is a closed data set and the
method is to eliminate the possibilities until your goal is reached.

By your example, most FT games don't have a specified mission.	As far
as I know most games are played until the players feel that one side has
won (usually by counting up NPV destroyed).  But they don't set a
specific value of NPV or any other real goal.  NPV has limited value in
determining overall victory value as evidenced by the debate of value
per point of small vs. large ships (i.e. are 300 NPV of DD's the same as
a SDN of 300 NPV?) VP actually brings more definition to victory
conditions - whether you choose to base your VP on NPV or other factors
is an individual decision, but it allows different players to play
within the same conventions to achieve a commonly known end point.

You seemed to have missed a key point in the original proposal which was
the VP value of the ship is revealed when it is destroyed so that each
side would know when the victory conditions were reached.

This means you have a constant running assessment of where you stand to
win, not the case you present where you don't know a) what the goal is
(it's to score the most VP faster than the opponent), b) how to get
there (kill enemy ships)or c) when do you know you've achieved your goal
(you've scored enough VP).

Mission objectives need to be bounded, but not always crystal clear -
many missions involve a degree of uncertainty and it is up to the
commander on the spot to use the resources and information on hand to
make the decisions that turn an encounter into a victory.

FT in and of itself - unless you run a campaign game, has no higher
level of planning other than two fleets show up and blow each other to
bits. VP is a tool in which those higher level factors such as
logistical, political, or economic reasons are abstracted to have an
impact at the tactical level.

--Binhan

-----Original Message-----
From: gzg-l-bounces@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
[mailto:gzg-l-bounces@lists.csua.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of John
Atkinson
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:49 AM
To: gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] Re: Points systems

On 1/11/06, B Lin <lin@rxkinetix.com> wrote:
> You don't have to fire at random targets.  You need to make
intelligent
> decisions regarding your opponent - if you think he has piled a
majority

OK, maybe you play among telepaths, or good buddies that you have
achieved near-telepathy with.

For the rest of us, we have to have something to base decisions on. 
Some data.  Taking all the targeting data and making it secret removes
the basis of those decisions.

> Like in all military matters you are trying to achieve your goal with
> maximum concentration of firepower with as little loss to yourself.
VP
> merely changes what that goal might be.

Which I don't have a problem with.  What I have the problem with is
hiding the goal.

Since you obviously neither know nor care what the military decision
making process it, let me introduce you to the acronym used as a
mnemonic for the factors governing the execution of any military plan.

METT-T.  Some people hang a C onto the end of that.

Mission
Equipment
Troops
Terrain
Time Availible
C is civillians.

Notice the first one is Mission.  You propose only revealing the
mission at the END of the game.

Again, with TLPs, the Army's Troop Leading Proceedures, there is an
8-step process.  The first one is: Recieve the Mission.  If you move
that to the end of the TLPs, (after 'supervise the execution of the
mission') you have removed the entire basis of the planning.

John
--
"Thousands of Sarmatians, Thousands of Franks, we've slain them again
and again.  We're looking for thousands of Persians."
--Vita Aureliani

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