RE: Engineers Was Re: TOE

At 9:14 AM +1000 7/2/04, <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
>G'day,
>
>Ok this is Beth as Brian now ;)
>
>>>>>>
>
>K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
>
>>  That works for me, but I don't know that I'd allow it to load a
disabled
>>  vehicle onto a transport unless it had a crane, which took up
capacity...
>
>>Normally, you use a winch to pull a vehicle onto a >transport. Even if
the
>>vehicle is damaged, as long as it can roll.
>
>Remember, this is for a setting in which Grav and GEV vehicles are
common.
>Unless you put some sort of "landing Gear" on their undercarriage,
which
>seems impractical, then rolling them is out of the question.

For a grav ARV, i'd suggest that you have the following constraints.

Figure the Grav is created/caused by running 
current through a set of coils. An ARV would 
float up (not roll of course) and the team would 
see what had failed. If it were the coils, a coil 
swap would work (nice thing is that it'd be 
simpler than a wheel station as there aren't 
moving parts. There might be cooling tubes as 
well, but QD fittings on key points are easy.). 
If it were the power pack or generator, then 
that'd be swapped. Assume a vehicle is too combat 
damaged to swap coils on, hook up some external 
bolt/chain on coils that are connected externally 
to the ARV/Transporter that then lifts the float 
(not track or car) up and supports it that way. A 
good parallelogram A-frame (2 A-frames, not one) 
to hitch it to the ARV and you're good to go with 
towing it back to a repair point while it's 
mission killed.

In fact, I modeled my Grav ARV with a crane, a 
short stubby box tube thing and two long coils 
strapped to the top deck ala the Leopard ARVs 
with their power packs stowed on top for a 
replacement of a pack in field.

>  >A crane able to lift a damaged truck or a tank is a hefty >item, and
>usually
>>mounted on a separate vehicle rather than onto the >transporter. It is
not
>>that often required on the transporter, and can be used >more flexibly
on a
>>separate chassis.
>
>I never said anything about putting them on the same chassis, I was
just
>trying to establish how big they are.

Tank Transporters usually have a winch provision 
for pulling a dead vehicle onto a trailer. ARVs 
usually have a large winch capable of pulling the 
class of vehicle it can recover on a 1:1 pull. 
They use 2:1 or 3:1 pulls for badly stuck 
vehicles. In the case of the Hercules, its 
something like a 60,000 lb winch. Can't recall 
off the top of my head. AFV interiors has a great 
article on the M88 Hercules and it's fit.

>Capacity of 8 would represent a fairly big module, that means the
garage
>module (not the vehicle carrying it, just the module) would be as big
as a
>class 1 vehicle.  The problem is, that as John A points out, there are
>varying amounts of equipment fielded at different levels.  I'm trying
to
>come up with something that's fair without adding TOO much more to the
game.

How big of a class is a 20' container? Is that 
size 2? Modern fold out Containers are pretty 
fancy with compact storage inside and 
flexibility. A PLS type system with a 30' 
container would be something like class 2.5 or 3.

You can fit 2 Ferret armored cars (class 1 size vehicles) into a 30'
container.

>John Atkinson wrote:
>
>>Depends--not all excavation equipment is created
>>equal.
>
>True, but in game terms, unless you want to add rules that tie the
amount of
>excavation work a vehicle can do in a turn to the size of its
equipment,
>it's easier to just come up with one standard-capacity package for
>excavation.

Depends. A Blade is easy to tack on. The Abrams 
can carry a blade no problem. ITs the bigger 
stuff that costs more space. Screw auger, 
backhoe, front end loader, etc.

>  >SEE trucks and the like with backhoes are
>>pretty small.
>
>A backhoe is still larger than an autocannon, right?  A turreted RFAC 2
is

Depends. There are little tiny jobbies on little 
1 men vehicles. The US Army fields a Short Wheel 
Base Unimog with a Front loader and rear mounted 
backhoe that can self deploy at higher speeds 
(than a tractor) and handle most basic jobs. 
Easily a class 2 truck with cargo space to spare.

>capacity 6.  Even allowing that a backhoe arm & bucket IS smaller than
the
>next weapon up, that weapon's class 3, capacity 9.  Unless you consoder
a
>backhoe to be a fixed weapon, in which case I could see it being 4-5
>capacity.  But that still leaves out a dozer blade, etc.

It can be fixed or turreted. I still think this 
is too complex. Whats wrong with an AEV that has 
an AEV package on it that takes 80% capacity. It 
can dig a position per turn for it's size. Size 4 
AEV can dig 4 class 4 tank scrape per turn or 8 
class 2 scrapes in a turn.

A Blade allows a fixed size scrape and only does 
have the work. But also allows proofing of 
minefields and clearing surface obstacles.
>
>Actually, I would too.  Based on the rules, it seems that DFFG's make
>perfect Demo Guns within the DS 2 framework.  But the rules say that an
>engineering element that spends its combat action adjacet to a target
can
>demolish it -- the rules don't distinguish between an engineering
vehicle
>and foot engineers.  That seemed odd.

Not really. Demo guns are really short ranged 
(Really effin short) and have a bloody huge HE 
explosion that's not so good for armor. I'd just 
make it part of the "blow a building in 1 turn" 
kit.

>That point has been made, and is valid for wheeled & Tracked vehicles. 
I'd
>still feel less cheesy paying points for towing gear for a Grav force
>though -- the extra capacity can be PSB'ed as a set of temporary grav
>lifters that are set under the damaged vehicle.

You can generally tow your type or one or two 
other types assuming compatible technology. 
Otherwise you drag it up on a trailer.

Tracks and wheels can flat or suspended tow other 
tracks and wheels of similar or smaller sizes. 
Its hard for a GEV to be flat or suspended towed 
with out a trailer or dolly supporting the other 
end. Grav could do so based on what I said above 
as the higher tech level allows some fancy work 
with bolt on kit.

>The problem is, that as the rules stand, I can deck that vehicle out
with
>all the weapons and systems of a regular MBT of the same class, then
make it
>capable of all the functions of an ARV AND an AEV, just by paying the
>points -- the engineering stuff takes up no capacity.	Doesn't that
strike
>you as cheesy?

Don't. Its cheesy. Don't. Look at modern examples 
and how far they have or have not come with 
technology. The Brits (basically the fore fathers 
of the Armored Engineer Vehicle) still have a 
basic set of classes:

ARV Tank chassis without turret and kit for 
recovering a given class of vehicle.  Able to 
recover classes of vehicles smaller than itself. 
Usually has an MG or two for defense. Can seat a 
handy number of crew above a normal MBT in a big 
roomy compartment that usually has the winch 
built into it for protection and servicing.

AEV: A tank w/ a turreted demolition gun and 
attachments for mission specific bits. Be they a 
fascine, dozer blade, Mine Clearing Line Charges, 
Carrot, and a number of other things.

AVLB: a tank chassis with turret removed and 
perhaps an MG with the ability to launch and 
recover a bridge of the same class as itself.

Now a class 2 AVLB is able to launch a class 2 
Bridge. A Class 4 AVLB is able to launch a class 
4 bridge. The bridge is able to support what size 
it is or smaller.

>As for the fact that all your examples are tracked or wheeled, that
doesn't
>work with a highly mobile grav-based force.  For excavation, you forgo
the
>dozer blade and use a backhoe.  For the mineplough, you use a "Gravitic
>pulse" array that disrupts mines.  For towing, as I said, Lifter pads
slid
>under the damaged hull.  Etc Etc. Etc.  I'm not so concerned with the
exact
>physical details of the system as with its game effects.

Same class or smaller. Standard packages cost 
80-100% of size of vehicle with wiggle room for 
extra bits like stowage of a power pack or spaces 
for the tank crew to ride. Think sliding scale vs 
fixed cost.

-- 
--
Ryan Gill	       rmgill@SPAMmindspring.com
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