RE: Engineers Was Re: TOE

G'day,

Ok this is Beth as Brian now ;)

>>>>>

K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:

> That works for me, but I don't know that I'd allow it to load a
disabled
> vehicle onto a transport unless it had a crane, which took up
capacity...

>Normally, you use a winch to pull a vehicle onto a >transport. Even if
the
>vehicle is damaged, as long as it can roll.

Remember, this is for a setting in which Grav and GEV vehicles are
common.
Unless you put some sort of "landing Gear" on their undercarriage, which
seems impractical, then rolling them is out of the question.

>A crane able to lift a damaged truck or a tank is a hefty >item, and
usually
>mounted on a separate vehicle rather than onto the >transporter. It is
not
>that often required on the transporter, and can be used >more flexibly
on a
>separate chassis.

I never said anything about putting them on the same chassis, I was just
trying to establish how big they are.

>Well, if it's supposed to represent a field workshop with >all the
tools,
>spare parts etc to do a variety of repairs for different >vehicles,
then it
>should need significant capacity.

Capacity of 8 would represent a fairly big module, that means the garage
module (not the vehicle carrying it, just the module) would be as big as
a
class 1 vehicle.  The problem is, that as John A points out, there are
varying amounts of equipment fielded at different levels.  I'm trying to
come up with something that's fair without adding TOO much more to the
game.

John Atkinson wrote:

>Depends--not all excavation equipment is created
>equal.

True, but in game terms, unless you want to add rules that tie the
amount of
excavation work a vehicle can do in a turn to the size of its equipment,
it's easier to just come up with one standard-capacity package for
excavation.

>SEE trucks and the like with backhoes are
>pretty small.

A backhoe is still larger than an autocannon, right?  A turreted RFAC 2
is
capacity 6.  Even allowing that a backhoe arm & bucket IS smaller than
the
next weapon up, that weapon's class 3, capacity 9.  Unless you consoder
a
backhoe to be a fixed weapon, in which case I could see it being 4-5
capacity.  But that still leaves out a dozer blade, etc.

>And there are larger vehicles that are
>still nothing but excavation equipment.

True, but see above.

>Huh?  I'd have a demo gun--which would take more
>capacity, but be much faster.

Actually, I would too.	Based on the rules, it seems that DFFG's make
perfect Demo Guns within the DS 2 framework.  But the rules say that an
engineering element that spends its combat action adjacet to a target
can
demolish it -- the rules don't distinguish between an engineering
vehicle
and foot engineers.  That seemed odd.

>Look at the M88--it includes a good bit more capacity
>than merely towing, yet it can tow an M-1.

That point has been made, and is valid for wheeled & Tracked vehicles. 
I'd
still feel less cheesy paying points for towing gear for a Grav force
though -- the extra capacity can be PSB'ed as a set of temporary grav
lifters that are set under the damaged vehicle.

>Again, depends.  The typical mechanic vehicle is a
>contact truck, which is a HMMWV, and used to be a
>CUTV.

Again, a good point, but a bit too fine-grain for the game as it stands
--
One fixed, "average" capacity is easier.

Ryan Gill wrote:

>Beth/Brian, I think you guys are making this too complex.

Be nice to Beth.  This is all on me, don't shoot the messenger.

>Size 3 AEV Tracked
>Turret w/ main gun and front blade
>Combat engineer kit (demolitions, etc).

The problem is, that as the rules stand, I can deck that vehicle out
with
all the weapons and systems of a regular MBT of the same class, then
make it
capable of all the functions of an ARV AND an AEV, just by paying the
points -- the engineering stuff takes up no capacity.  Doesn't that
strike
you as cheesy?

As for the fact that all your examples are tracked or wheeled, that
doesn't
work with a highly mobile grav-based force.  For excavation, you forgo
the
dozer blade and use a backhoe.	For the mineplough, you use a "Gravitic
pulse" array that disrupts mines.  For towing, as I said, Lifter pads
slid
under the damaged hull.  Etc Etc. Etc.	I'm not so concerned with the
exact
physical details of the system as with its game effects.