Re: Suggestions and Advice Solicited!

On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 12:18:30 -0800 Jaime Tiampo
<fugu@spikyfishthing.com>
writes:
>Pat Connaughton wrote:
>
>> I plan to aquire a set of each of the principle human fleets 
>represented by
>> FB#1. The FSE, NAC, ESU, and the NSL. Could the 'list suggest an 
>Order
>> of Battle for a typical task force of say 15 to 20 ships that woudl
>> represent
>> the appropriate mix of weapons and ships to typify each of the
>> afforementioned
>> spacial nations? SInce, plan to play a lot of FT this year, this 
>seems to be
>> the best way to approach this.
>
>Can't help you too much there. I play with ships that I've created
>myself. I find the FB 1/2 ships to be lacking. We play with purely
>vector movment and the ships in the books are designed for both vector
>and cinimatic which compromises them a bit.
>

Okay, I'm extremely green - tell me how this works, please?

>What I run for a fleet is a Super Dreadnoughts a few BBs a couple of
>cruisers and a bunch of destroyers. I find ships larger then a frigate
>but smaller then a heavy cruiser aren't usually worth the points. 

Hmmm,	Maybe the original use of such ships wasn't in fleet actions at
all just because of this.  Didn't Light Cruisers in WW1 and WW2 tend to
stay far away from "Big Bad BB's" because of that reason?  Maybe Light
Cruisers should be used as per past historical actions (IIRC) in small
actions and screening prior to heavies duke-ing it out?  Wish I was more
knowledgable about historical naval practices...

They
>are basically disabled after one exchange of fire and are useless
>afterwards. I prefer the frigates, which even though die after one
>exchange cost less and there can be more of them put out making for 
>more
>targets they have to split their fire to. I run on the 10/20/70 
>system.
>10% armour, 30% hull, and 70% systems. My SuperDreadnoughts usually
>carry a few fighter groups but I've been slowly phasing them out in
>preference to pure carriers. My preference for carriers is a pocket
>carrier, nothing but fighterbays and a small small engine :) I've got 
>it
>at about 500pts for ship and 8 regular fighter squads. 
>

I did not understand the example in FT/2nd that shows "Carriers" having
"C" class guns... Wouldn't it be better to have larger guns "BB" types
for that and stick to PDAF/ADAF weaponry plus screens?

>For weapons I usually have a balance of PT and regular beam batteries.
>If the game is big enough I like to have a spread of fighter types.
>Interceptors, torpedo bombers and regular fighters. I use the
>interceptors for defence and screens for the torpedo bombers. I don't
>use many missiles purely because I find it unbalances the game, well 
>if
>you use them right :) As for personal feelings, I'd rather expend lots
>of MT missiles and not get any of my people killed then fight it out
>"fairly" but the games end up being really short when I run a
>fighter/missile fleet, even with masses of PD.
>

Well, my first and only FT experience has made me *very* missile
conscious...

>For PD most of my ships heavy cruiser or bigger carry 3+ PD and an 
>ADFC.
>I go for the dispersed area defence as opposed to the pure area 
>defence
>cruiser. This keep the enemy from singling out the cruiser and just
>destroying it and firing the missiles afterwards.
>

Sound like sound doctrine to my unsophisticated mind.
<snip>
>I don't have much experience with the "official" fleets but here's 
>what
>works for my fleet. 
>You either should have balanced fighters against your opponent, or
>overwhelming superiority. There is no point outnumbering him by a
>little. You end up with a handfull of fighter groups left that can't 
>do
>anything because they'll take too many casualties attacking ships from
>PD and ADPD. Decide on how you want to use  your fighters, offensive 
>or
>defensive. Regular fighters can do either but the most bang for you 
>buck
>is to have a strategy and design your fleet around it. Specialise as
>much as possible. I usually run Interceptors and Attack/torpedo
>fighters. I clean out the enemy fighters first witht he interceptors
>then use them for ship defence. The attack/torpedo fighters go in with
>the MT missiles in their first attack to swamp PD. I like to try and 
>get
>a first strike against the opposing fleet. That's why I run MT 
>missiles
>more then SML. The range of the missiles for a first strike off sets 
>the
>decrease is firepower.
>Ship deployment is usually in a tight circle. This keeps the area
>defences overlapped and keeps the ships close together allowing them 
>to
>come into range at roughly the same time. For battles against Phalons
>things get more tricky :)
>
>Jaime
Interesting deployment - runs directly counter to the spread out and
flank them approach Mark uses...

Good stuff here, please keep it going.

Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd.  Resistance is everything!

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Subject: Re: Suggestions and Advice Solicited!
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:37:18 +1100 "Alan and Carmel Brain"
<aebrain@dynamite.com.au> writes:
>From: "Pat Connaughton" <patconnaughton@earthlink.net>
>> I plan to aquire a set of each of the principle human fleets 
>represented
>by
>> FB#1. The FSE, NAC, ESU, and the NSL. Could the 'list suggest an 
>Order
>> of Battle for a typical task force of say 15 to 20 ships that woudl
>> represent
>> the appropriate mix of weapons and ships to typify each of the
>> afforementioned
>> spacial nations? SInce, plan to play a lot of FT this year, this 
>seems to
>be
>> the best way to approach this.
>
>A good, balanced fleet could consist of:
>50% Capital Ships
>50% others
>
>Taking some examples:
>NSL:
>3 Maria Von Bergunds (or Richtofens)
>3 Heavy Cruisers whose name I forget
>6 Waldbergs, with maybe a few Waldburg Ms
>2 Escort Cruisers, the light cruisers with ADAFs whose name I also 
>forget.
>

Are heavy cruisers in this example part of the 50% Capital ships?  Or is
this 50% by "points"  Can you tell i am extremely new at this?	 8^(
 
>ESU
>1 Komarov(?) Super Carrier
>5 Heavy Cruisers whose name I also forget
>2 Beijing-Bs (Escort Cruisers with ADAFs)
>6 Krivaks
>2 Nanuchkas
>
>NAC
>2 Dreadnaughts
>2 Vandenberg-Ts
>4 Furious
>6 Tacomas
>
>All of the above come to about 2750 pts - add a few frigates as scouts 
>to
>taste.

Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd.  Resistance is everything!

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If it could only be.

Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd.  Resistance is everything!

On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:22:30 -0600 "thurvin" <thurvin@netzero.net>
writes:
>To the day, the only battles fought on the 4' x 6' sheets of 
>polystyene.
>Hear!!Hear!
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com>
>To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; <sfconsim-l@egroups.com>;
><Starguard@egroups.com>
>Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 8:25 PM
>Subject: [OT] Christmas Greetings!
>
>
>> In less then four hours (It's 2011 hours (8:11 P.M. for non 
>military,
>> non-nursing types) currently) it will be Christmas here in Saint 
>Louis,
>> MO, USA.  I know some of you already are technically in Christmas 
>Day
>> mode.
>>
>> But in any and all cases, Good Christmas to you and your loved ones.
>>
>> May this next year bring us closer to peace on the 'real' world [but 
>not
>> on the game board!]	Though it contradicts my expectations for this
>> world, I dream of a time when 'warfare' is only a memory, and a dim 
>one
>> at that, and it can truly be said "...and on Earth Peace to men on 
>whom
>> His favor shines.." {Luke 2:14b NIV} and it will apply to all 
>mankind.
>>
>> Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
>> You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
>> Nektons - Real Marines!
>> Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
>> Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd.  Resistance is 
>everything!
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________
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On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 10:37:00 -0800 Mark Reindl <mreindl@pacbell.net>
writes:
<snip>
>
>Well, it really depends on what you think is appropriate :).  I've 
>played
>against some people who think that an appropriate mix is nothing but
>battlecruisers and larger.  However, I'd suggest that to have an 
>equitable
>fleet, you'd want at least one cruiser (possibly two) for every 
>capital ship(I
>usually define a capital ship as BC and larger), and two
>destroyers/frigates/corvettes for every cruiser.  That would give you 
>a
>relatively balanced fleet with 3-4 capital ships out of a fleet of 20 
>ships.  If
>you have a carrier task force, I'd probably run even more escorts, 
>particularly
>if you're playing an NAC fleet, as their carriers tend to be rather 
>wimpy.  I
>also like running lighter fleets, and have at times had fleets 
>centered around a
>light carrier, with the rest of the fleet made up of cruisers and 
>smaller escort
>classes.
>

Great comments!  Have you seen anyone run "BC plus" type fleets against
"Light" heavy fleets  (Gee almost sounds like WRG terminology - Light
Heavies)?  What were the results?  
<snip>
>
>When the guys in my group first started playing FT, one of the things 
>that we
>all tended to do was to group our ships into one huge block and just 
>fly at each
>other and beat the hell out of one another.  However, that (as you can 
>probably
>imagine) got boring rather quickly.  One of the things that I have 
>done that
>works pretty well is to break my fleets up into smaller elements, 
>usually three,
>and position them across the board.  If the enemy goes for one of the 
>elements
>in force, then I turn it away and position the others to fire into the 
>flanks of
>the enemy.  It's a sort of 'weave' tactic that has worked fairly well, 
>and I've
>used it to good effect with fleets ranging from my ESU to the Kra'vak 
>(which it
>really works well with due to their high thrust and, more importantly,
>maneuverability) because what it does is to provide maximum coverage 
>of the
>board and support for each of the elements.  It also helps to ensure 
>that the
>enemy will always be under my guns, instead of having to maneuver for 
>several
>turns to get any shots.  In addition, I've found that opponents tend 
>to focus on
>smashing one element with the majority of their ships, leaving the 
>others free
>to set up to munch their entire fleet while they're killing 1/3 of 
>mine.
>

Human nature, it's a constant...

>Hope that helps,
>
>Mark
>
Can't speak for Pat but it has helped me start thinking about fleets and
tactics so Thanks!

Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd.  Resistance is everything!

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On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:19:02 -0600 "Pat Connaughton"
<patconnaughton@earthlink.net> writes:
<snip>
>I plan to aquire a set of each of the principle human fleets 
>represented by
>FB#1. The FSE, NAC, ESU, and the NSL. Could the 'list suggest an Order
>of Battle for a typical task force of say 15 to 20 ships that woudl
>represent
>the appropriate mix of weapons and ships to typify each of the
>afforementioned
>spacial nations? SInce, plan to play a lot of FT this year, this seems 
>to be
>the best way to approach this.
<snip>
>Pat Connaughton
>e-mail - ptconn@earthlink.net
>homepage - www.home.earthlink.net/~ptconn

Pat, given the 'naval' atmosphere of the game and my complete inability
to do anything quite by "the regs" (Inborn genetic thing)  I would
suggest   that your plan has merit (quite a bit) but in general I would
suggest that given the naval 'prejudice' <grin> and the purpose of the
fleet being to be very general purpose you should consider WW2 or modern
naval task forces (SAG's etc.) for possible force structures.

A major capitol ship or two, specialist and possibly general purpose
"Cruisers" to provide inner ring forces plus significant outer ring
forces.

A bastardized WW2 model would be a major Task Force of 2 CV's, possibly
2
CVL's, 2-4 CA's, 4-6 CL and CLAA types,  and 6-8 DD types.

Or a CV-less force of 4-5 BB's, 3-5 CA's, 3-5 CL/CLAA's and at least 8
DD's.

But a lot depends on what kind of scenarios you plan to run with these
forces.  Planetary assault?  Going to need the appropriate LHA, LSD and
LST equivalents plus significant escorts (Running BB's with these babies
seems a tad unusual...)  And I have no idea if planetary bombardment is
aa consideration in the FT environment - much less what kind of
ships/weapons would be used... Economic Denial Raid?  Asteroid Fighter
Base neutralization?  Death Star destruction assault? Take (Beth's?)
scenario off the web and instead of one force trying to kill the UN
representative, imagine what would be needed to kidnap a high
muckety-muck for nefarious purposes...

A lot depends on your interpretation of the nations and their
ethics/goals (yes, I know canon - there are no "good" guys) as to what
kinds of ships and weaponry would be 'right' for  each nation.	Plus all
the optional possibilities (Nova Gun anyone?) 

Or you can take the idea that a task force might have taken "Game wise"
optimum weaponry for those one on one points games and/or tournaments.

But I am enjoying the few posts so far on this thread.	Beams have no
nationality.  

I am soaking it all up since I have so little rules specific knowledge
myself.

Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd.  Resistance is everything!

________________________________________________________________
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From: "Dean Gundberg" <Dean.Gundberg@noridian.com>
To: "GZG List" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: St Jon - Exposed!
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 16:10:20 -0600
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For those of us who have never had a chance to meet Mr. Jon Tuffley in
person, or if you have ever wondered what a GZG booth looks like at a UK
convention, I just ran across some pictures of Bifrost 2000 on the web
which
has just those shots.

http://www.sealteamsix.com/tonsha/bif00_5.html

These pictures are from Tonsha who does the scratch-built FT minis out
of
balsa wood, cereal boxes and dried vegetables.

Enjoy,
Dean Gundberg

Starship Combat News
The latest information on Space Games and Miniatures
http://star_ranger.homestead.com/
star_ranger@my-deja.com
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From: "bif smith" <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk>
To: "full thrust" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE-Ship names
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I know you said reply off list, but I thought I`d share these titles by
ian
m. banks (and just from memory)-
consider phlebas
the player of games
use of weapons
the state of the art
excession (I think?)
Probably more in the culture series, but memory not work very well
today.

BIF
"yorkshire born,yorkshire bred,
strong in arms, thick in head"