RE: Holiday wish and a question about an FT weapon that isn't....
From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@t...>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:21:25 +0100
Subject: RE: Holiday wish and a question about an FT weapon that isn't....
Barclay, Tom wrote:
> Secondly FT:
> ===================
> Has anyone ever thought about a crew-killer weapon
Peter Mancini did just that last week (his Minbari Meson Beam and
Vorlon Neutron Beam are both crew-killers rather than ship-killers).
There have been several other versions before - including all "boarding
pod/blood worm" thingies, though you may want to rewrite their PSB a
bit.
Merry Christmas,
Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer.
What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry
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Subject: Re: [FT - DS - SG] Aliens (as in the non-human kind...)
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From: Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com>
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On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:26:46 -0500 Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
writes:
>On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:22:30 EST, Glenn M Wilson
><triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
>
>>Okay, right after MT, FB1, and FB2... umm, is Jon coming out with a
>>second edition of MT/FB1/FB2 or something to tie this all together?
>>Maybe I should ask that first - oh well, I have plenty of time since
>I am
>>only 50! <grin>
>
>Jon has a few things on the go, including FMA (the skirmish game using
>a
>Stargrunt-like game mechanic), the "Bugs Don't Surf" supplement, and
>the next
>edition of Full Thrust (FT3) that pulls all of the FT rules into one
>package
>and brings along much of the stuff that's missing.
>
Okay, either way, I wait. And that's okay, Space combat is middling way
down the list of priorities. The only reason I even have FT/@nd is the
winning of a gift certificate (used at con with vendors only type) at
the
last local con (My third local and third ever con attendance.)
>Which of these will come out first, or maybe something else, is up in
>the air.
>I know what we've been discussing on the playtest mailing list, and I
>can
>guess at what might come out next, but it would only be a guess.
>
>I suggest, though, that you consider picking up at least FB1. It gives
>you the
>vector rules, the new firing arcs, and the new ship design system.
>
Okay, late 2001.
>
>Allan Goodall awg@sympatico.ca
>Goodall's Grotto: http://www.vex.net/~agoodall
>
>"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
>toys into a living room full of drunken men, things
>always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Re FT-FIghter accel.
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 01:47:28 +1100
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From: "bif smith" <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk>
> Also, how about the MT missiles having different burnout settings,
with
the
> endurance setting as above (3 turns endurance, 24 MU per turn, 6 MU
> targeting range), a normal setting, equal to ER SML`s (2 turns
endurance,
36
> MU per turn), and a sprint setting (haven`t worked this one out, but
maybe
> 48 MU movement, for just 1 turn, with PDS rolling for intercepting the
same
> as a heavy fighter (it`s a lot faster, making it a lot harder to
stop)).
Simple is good:
MT missiles move as per fighters, with and endurance of 2, and speed 24,
moving in the fighter phase ie before ship movement.
Like Salvo Missiles, they must go for the closest target within 6", 3"
if
vector.
That's it.
Some consequences that may not be apparent:
Note that if they get fired at range 24, they can then use a "reserve
move"
of 12" after ships have moved, just like a fighter, so provided the
desired
target was within 12" of the original aimpoint, it can always be the
"closest".
Thus they have an effective range of 36" (pinpoint accurate) or 42" in 1
turn.
Alternately, they can hit things up to 54" away (48" + 6" homing), but
suffer the
same problems as SMs re Banzai Jammers and predicting opponent's
course/speed, and take 2 turns to get there.
This gives MT missiles a unique flavour, while "re-using" existing
rules.
Neat.
Simple.
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From: "Peter Mancini" <peter_mancini@msn.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Kra'Vak
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 13:30:22 -0500
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What is the general idea for the Kra'vak? What are they physically
like?
How do their motivations differ than the humans present in the game?
Will
they be organized on the ground just like their human counterparts? If
so,
aren't they just humans in alien costumes?
I suppose this is a bit silly to ask since BDS hasn't been published
yet,
but I am new to the list after a 2 year hiatus so I need to be brought
up to
speed on what The Great Maker (that would be Jon) has said on the
subject.
--Peter
P.S. FT/SG are my two favorite miniatures games ever written. I like
things
like BattleGround, Command Decision, Piquet (sometimes), but nothing has
captured my imagination as much as GZG games.
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Fighter House Rules.
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:48:53 -0600
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Hi, Folks,
My fighter house rules, open for your comments.
1. That fighter are launched and recovered during primary fighter
movement
phase.
2.Launching fighters can placed anywhere within 6" inches of the
carrier.
Launching counts as their primary fighter phase, but they can act
normally
Landing fighters must be 6" of the carrier.
3. Any ship can launch or land fighters equal to half of number of
fighter
bays left.
4. Any ship has deck crews equal to the number of fighter bays (Be gone
evil
SFB spirits.) Which can land or recover fighters, or rearm fighters.
Example A light carrier can launch one fighter group, recovery another
fighter group, rearm two others. One has to assign these task in order
writing phase like DCP.
5. Rearming fighter, During the record-keeping phase, a d6 is rolled for
each fighter. if the result is equal to or greater than the strength of
fighter group it is rearmed. Running tab must be kept.
_____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Kra'Vak
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You can see the Kra'Vak at war in space and land here:
http://www.concentric.net/~Los/ft/lossf.htm
Los
Peter Mancini wrote:
> What is the general idea for the Kra'vak? What are they physically
like?
> How do their motivations differ than the humans present in the game?
Will
> they be organized on the ground just like their human counterparts?
If so,
> aren't they just humans in alien costumes?
>
> I suppose this is a bit silly to ask since BDS hasn't been published
yet,
> but I am new to the list after a 2 year hiatus so I need to be brought
up to
> speed on what The Great Maker (that would be Jon) has said on the
subject.
>
> --Peter
> P.S. FT/SG are my two favorite miniatures games ever written. I like
things
> like BattleGround, Command Decision, Piquet (sometimes), but nothing
has
> captured my imagination as much as GZG games.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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Subject: Re: Kra'Vak
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Hi, Peter. I'm a poor one to answer, but as one of the few family-less
heathens currently working, I may be the only one to give a shot.
***
What is the general idea for the Kra'vak? What are they physically
like?
How do their motivations differ than the humans present in the game?
Will
they be organized on the ground just like their human counterparts? If
so,
aren't they just humans in alien costumes?
***
Well, amongst the archived photos on the official GZG catalog, though
not
an order site, you'll find the fig picures:
http://www.gtns.net/gzg/oldimages/sgk-2.jpg
Also, 1 and 3 instead of 2, but that's the best image. You'll notice a
certain similarity to certain visitors who 'played' both with Sly
Stallone
and Danny Glover, but are currently found in several games dancing with
Aliens.
The list made up a clan structure and history, but, again, I'd have to
direct you to the list achives and the Web Ring.
In the end, the diversity of human 'types' and the limitations of our
imaginations make human-like aliens the norm, it seems.
On the other hand, as our apparently most direct competion, one might
expect similarities of drive and needs. I like the Sa'vasku not entirely
sure whether to side with 'us or them'.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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Subject: Whoops! Re: Kra'Vak
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All reading these words before 12/26, please ignore the implication you
might be either family-less or heathens! ;->=
The_Beast
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From: "Peter Mancini" <peter_mancini@msn.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Kra'Vak
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:34:51 -0500
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>From: devans@uneb.edu
>In the end, the diversity of human 'types' and the limitations of our
>imaginations make human-like aliens the norm, it seems.
>
>On the other hand, as our apparently most direct competion, one might
>expect similarities of drive and needs. I like the Sa'vasku not
entirely
>sure whether to side with 'us or them'.
Thanks friend, clearly they are The Predator. Interesting, I wonder if
they
will seek things out in the Infrared and have cloaking technology?
I like the 'Aliens' they alien - sufficiently not human enough to be
interesting and thus have lots of Kryomech.
I hope you aren't working late today. If you work on a Sunday it must
not
be a regular 9-5 job? Eh?
--Peter
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Subject: Re: Kra'Vak
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>From: Los <los@cris.com>
>You can see the Kra'Vak at war in space and land here:
>
> http://www.concentric.net/~Los/ft/lossf.htm
>
Very cool - that will take me some time to read! Good work.
--Peter
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***
Thanks friend, clearly they are The Predator. Interesting, I wonder if
they
will seek things out in the Infrared and have cloaking technology?
I like the 'Aliens' they alien - sufficiently not human enough to be
interesting and thus have lots of Kryomech.
***
Interesting your first sentence mirrors SEVERAL posts to the group. I
think
UV was also mentioned.
Don't recall personal cloaking being mentioned. Also, while I have the
Kryomec books and several figs, never delved deeply there. I'll put that
on
my list of things to try again.
>From many of your earlier comments, I think you'll find Rot Hafen the
impressive treat it truly is.
***
I hope you aren't working late today. If you work on a Sunday it must
not
be a regular 9-5 job? Eh?
***
Actually, off at 15:00; and that talk of 'family-less' was all that.
I'll
be enjoying an Xmas eve tradtion with mum, sis, bro-in-law, niece and
niece's current SO, as well as my own SO, of pizza! ;->=
I'm just helping cover the shop so others can have full holidays. I'll
be
working the first, too. My hardy partying days are long behind me.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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Subject: Let's try this a different tack...
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Okay, let's assume that you have a task force equipped with FT thrust
weaponry. This means Beams (36, 24, 12 inch types) and Pulse Torpedoes
plus the odd needle beam. Further, assume you have an opponent equipped
with Salvo missiles (standard range 24" and ER 36" on Pat's Player's
Aid)
but you don't. Assume same arcs (60 or 90 or whatever, but each fleet
the same... <grin>) Assume minimal fighters (say each task force has a
sprinkling of BB/BC with One BattleDreadNought (and one standard fighter
group each) and mostly cruisers and escorts. Okay so far?
*Now* while exact tactics will depend on exact fleet compositions and
actions of squadrons involved what over arching tactics should a
non-Salvo Missile armed force bear in mind when confronted with a
similar
force that does use Salvo Missiles? Should they close and try and stay
close to use the Pulse Torpedoes and close range Beams? Or should they
sit out beyond 24" and try to chip away (and if so wouldn't you die
quickly versus ER - 36" - missiles?)
Also, Pulse torpedoes appear to very powerful weapons but it appears you
need two things to use them successfully - besides surviving to use them
on the run in - close ranges when firing and average plus die rolls when
rolling to hit and damage effects. And the 5 mass capacity for Pulse
Torpedo launchers is a bit steep for smaller cruisers and escorts.
And are Needle Beams as ineffective in practice as my first impression
of
the rules/numbers seem to indicate? When they hit they are powerful but
the 9" range and the need to roll a six to hit make them make them an
apparent "do or die' weapon... I don't think anyone had/used them in
the
game I played...
In the game I played the Player's Aid listed them (needle beams) as 12"
and had a different CRT value (1 to 4 zip, 5 1 hull box, 6 hull box and
selected system KO'ed.) Is that a MT or FB1/2 change?
There were no fighters in the game I played that I recall, but how does
that affect tactics when they are a minimal force (as per above) other
then justify PDAF/ADAF?
That's all for now. And it's probably pretty vague to the veterans but
I
am trying to see how the weapon's interact between fleets.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's try this a different tack...
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:00:56 +0100
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Glenn M Wilson wrote:
>Okay, let's assume that you have a task force equipped with FT thrust
>weaponry. This means Beams (36, 24, 12 inch types) and Pulse
>Torpedoes plus the odd needle beam.
The beams (corresponding to FBx Class 3, 2 and 1 types) are more
powerful (due to being smaller) than their FBx counterparts; the Pulse
Torp and Needle Beam are weaker (mainly due to modified rules for them,
but the FB1 P-torp is also smaller and able to be multi-arc).
>Further, assume you have an opponent equipped with Salvo missiles
>(standard range 24" and ER 36" on Pat's Player's Aid) but you don't.
Then you either use very high thrust ratings and don't fly in straight
lines, or you have massive amounts of ADAF (or *extreme* amounts of
PDAF on each individual ship). Otherwise, you're up the wrong gulf with
nothing to row with, like.
>*Now* while exact tactics will depend on exact fleet compositions and
>actions of squadrons involved what over arching tactics should a
>non-Salvo Missile armed force bear in mind when confronted with a
>similar force that does use Salvo Missiles? Should they close and try
>and stay close to use the Pulse Torpedoes and close range Beams? >Or
should they sit out beyond 24" and try to chip away (and if so
>wouldn't you die quickly versus ER - 36" - missiles?)
What weapon mix *exactly* do your ships carry? A-batteries are very
different tactically from C-batteries (never mind that C-batteries were
pointless in FT2!). Multi-arc beam batteries are very different
tactically from forward-arc-only Pulse Torps - you *can't* keep the
range open with the FT2 P-torps (unless your ships are thrust-8 or
faster - FT2 doesn't allow higher thrust ratings than 8, but FBx does),
since you have to move towards the target to point the weapons in the
right direction.
What other weapons, apart from the SMs, do the *enemy* use (will they
be able to outgun you at any particular range)? How heavy screens do
they use (are P-torps worthwhile at all)? What thrust ratings do your
and their ships have (can you control the range, or will they be able
to fight at the range they like)?
How heavy point defences do your ships have? How much of it is ADAF
(ie., do you gain any anti-missile coverage from flying in tight
formations, or does a tight formation only make you an easier target)?
What is good or bad tactics depend on all of these, and more.
BTW, normal-range missiles can hit you beyond range 24mu. That is to
say, they can hit up to 30mu away from where they were fired - 24mu
missile range + 6mu targetting radius - but all ships move between
missile launch and missile attacks.
>Also, Pulse torpedoes appear to very powerful weapons
The FT2 P-torps are only powerful *in FT2* because screens,
particularly level-3, were are very cheap and powerful (and therefore
very common). In FBx screens are big, expensive, and limited to a max
level of 2, which reduces the value of screen-ignoring weapons. The FBx
P-torps are smaller and longer-ranged than the FT2 ones, but they still
aren't particularly powerful *in FBx*.
>but it appears you need two things to use them successfully - besides
>surviving to use them on the run in - close ranges when firing and
>average plus die rolls when rolling to hit and damage effects.
"Average plus die rolls" can make *any* weapon seem powerful.
Conversely bad die rolls can make any weapon look like crap.
>And the 5 mass capacity for Pulse Torpedo launchers is a bit steep
>for smaller cruisers and escorts.
>
>And are Needle Beams as ineffective in practice as my first
>impression of the rules/numbers seem to indicate?
Yes. Which is why they were improved in FB1.
>There were no fighters in the game I played that I recall, but how
does
>that affect tactics when they are a minimal force (as per above) other
>then justify PDAF/ADAF?
Depends entirely on how they're used.
>That's all for now. And it's probably pretty vague to the veterans
but I
>am trying to see how the weapon's interact between fleets.
There are at least as many possible weapon interactions as there are
combinations of opposing (fleets+tactics), and there are quite a few
ways to design fleets as well as many different possible tactics for
each of those fleets. And that's assuming all ships, on *both* sides,
are designed using the same set of design rules: FT2 *OR* FBx.
Unfortunately, very few - if any - players have fought battles between
ships designed under different design rules - FT2 *AND* FBx, in the
same battle. You'll have to figure the interactions out for yourself,
because we simply don't know.
Regards,
Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer.
What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry
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Starguard@egroups.com
Subject: [OT] Christmas Greetings!
Message-ID: <20001225.201958.6647.0.triphibious@juno.com>
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In less then four hours (It's 2011 hours (8:11 P.M. for non military,
non-nursing types) currently) it will be Christmas here in Saint Louis,
MO, USA. I know some of you already are technically in Christmas Day
mode.
But in any and all cases, Good Christmas to you and your loved ones.
May this next year bring us closer to peace on the 'real' world [but not
on the game board!] Though it contradicts my expectations for this
world, I dream of a time when 'warfare' is only a memory, and a dim one
at that, and it can truly be said "...and on Earth Peace to men on whom
His favor shines.." {Luke 2:14b NIV} and it will apply to all mankind.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
________________________________________________________________
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From: "Peter Mancini" <peter_mancini@msn.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Kra'Vak
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:58:35 -0500
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>From: devans@uneb.edu <with much snippage>
>Actually, off at 15:00; and that talk of 'family-less' was all that.
I'll
>be enjoying an Xmas eve tradtion with mum, sis, bro-in-law, niece and
>niece's current SO, as well as my own SO, of pizza! ;->=
>My hardy partying days are long behind me.
Glad to hear it. I know some on our list are on the front lines in dark
corners of this world. I have friends who are soldiers, cops, EMT's and
the
like and they tend to miss many of the major holidays. I forgot a gift
yesterday and had to go to the Mos Eisly Mall, a vile pit of scum and
villany..., anyway - I think shop keeping on the 24th ranks pretty high
up
there with duty requiring combat pay.
Enjoy one and all,
--Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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References: <20001225.201958.6647.0.triphibious@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Christmas Greetings!
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:22:30 -0600
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To the day, the only battles fought on the 4' x 6' sheets of polystyene.
Hear!!Hear!
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; <sfconsim-l@egroups.com>;
<Starguard@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 8:25 PM
Subject: [OT] Christmas Greetings!
> In less then four hours (It's 2011 hours (8:11 P.M. for non military,
> non-nursing types) currently) it will be Christmas here in Saint
Louis,
> MO, USA. I know some of you already are technically in Christmas Day
> mode.
>
> But in any and all cases, Good Christmas to you and your loved ones.
>
> May this next year bring us closer to peace on the 'real' world [but
not
> on the game board!] Though it contradicts my expectations for this
> world, I dream of a time when 'warfare' is only a memory, and a dim
one
> at that, and it can truly be said "...and on Earth Peace to men on
whom
> His favor shines.." {Luke 2:14b NIV} and it will apply to all mankind.
>
> Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
> You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
> Nektons - Real Marines!
> Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
> Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is
everything!
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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From: "Peter Mancini" <peter_mancini@msn.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Ship Names
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:25:34 -0500
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Special Circumstance
Option Strict
Prominent Lead
Conspicuous Intent
Unmistakable
Never Say Die
Bonny Sandboy
Euphrosyne
Anhedonia
Class 3 Beams of Discontent
Voice Politic in Action
Ineffaceable
Smell the Glove
Tartaran
Diabolic
Cruel as Death
Gezahntes Übel des Scharfen
--Peter
Yes, one of those is a "Spinal Tap" album name while another is a Visual
Basic command! Hope you enjoy. At least 2 of those seem like British
ship
names to me. Well it is 35 minutes away from Midnight. I need to get
into
bed so that Santa can come. Hopefully he will bring me the Phalon
Fathership The Bonny Sandboy...
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From: Donald Hosford <Hosford.Donald@acd.net>
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: More weapon concept questions
References: <000b01c06a05$a61441a0$61be893e@auser>
<002b01c06a23$cef77f60$6dfb0e3f@pavilion> <3A4062AC.D01BBD88@ACD.net>
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It sounds easier to create new or translate something else...
Donald Hosford
Jeff Miller wrote:
> Donald Hosford wrote:
>
> > My question is...would Starfire 4th's strategic rules make a good
system
> > for FT battles? Would it be worth the trouble to make the necessary
> > conversions/changes?
> > (toss out all that tactical stuff...flawed)
>
> The tactical isn't flawed, IMO, but it is more abstracted.
>
> It would work pretty well once you translated MC (Mega Credits) into
> CV points.
>
> However, it will be a while before the opponents meet each other
> (since SF assumes that each race starts out just having discovered
> Warp Points).
>
> Also, by default, there is the chance to meet Non Player Races so you
> might want to have some way to quickly build different alien races
> (maybe create "style sheets" for a bunch at the beginning and then
> randomly pick when they come up). Then you have to find a way of
> resolving combats with NPRs (usually an "uninterested party" plays the
> NPR).
>
> --
>
> Jeff Miller
> Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon V
>
> Burbank Airport Hilton -- June 8-10, 2001
> http://www.agamemcon.org
>
> Contact Info:
> 92 Corporate Park Ste C-330
> Irvine, CA 92606
> Phone: (949)643-8352
> Fax: (949)863-9021
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Message-ID: <020d01c06e72$cb3d6760$0501a8c0@rmako>
From: "Bob Makowsky" <rmako@coqui.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <F5G1KiaexdDAO2Rpy9t0000157d@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Xmas
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 09:01:27 -0400
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All,
Just got off duty here in PR. Happy Holidays to all and the best in the
new
year!
Bob Makowsky
USCG SAR