Re: Arcs in vector

G'day Tom,

 >Whereas my respect for your judgement is boundless, I stipulate a
points of
 >disagreement.

This must be the politest way I've ever heard a disagreement commence ;)

 >1) the KV don't have to worry about the human ability to fight better
close
 >in (similarly the humans don't often get this advantage) because good
KV
 >tactics will usually ensure a few decent rounds of closing fire
(generally,
 >as the KV, I manoevre to keep range at 20-30, and with higher thrust
than
 >most humans and KV vector movement rules, I have little trouble). The
humans
 >won't like that.

Even with the FSE I'd be happy to have you site at 20-30", with the NSL
or 
ESU I'd probably be even happier to be honest - or do you only roll 1s
for 
comms checks ;)

 >I believe a human fleet built with one arc heavies and 2-3 arc
secondaries
 >would routinely (not in every case) whump the 3+ arc mains/ 4-6 arc
 >secondary human fleets I've seen. They have a more limited tactical
 >envelope, but that doesn't matter if the tactics are effective.

While I wouldn't state it quite so strongly I would agree that ships
with 
the odd 1-arc but mostly 3-arcs are getting more out of their money for 
their arcs than ships with lots of big weapons with 4+ arcs. The 4+ arcs

aren't all that necessary though the odd one to ping anyone who does
manage 
to get in behind you can be helpful.

 >With the KV, this is particularly pronounced due to their better
manouvre
 >drives. But even with a human MD4 I believe (since it only costs 1 to
turn
 >the ship as much as you want) I can mostly arrange to end up facing my
 >targets until I get very close.

I don't doubt it Tom, but that's where the opponent has to start using 
their noggin too - they have to respond to your capabilities as much as 
they're maximising their own.

 >	1) The fist, while not the only formation, is valid in many
cases.
 >It allows concentrated Area Defence, concentrated firepower...
 >enemy ..in range of one of your ships is often in range of many.
 >Mutual support, overwatch, whatever....

However you shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking it thus becomes the

only option. Try two balls instead, each has at least some measure of
the 
security and support you mentioned above, but it also keeps the 1-arc 
opponents guessing. Against a 3-arc opponent I'd probably stick with
"the 
fist" unless there was some other (say area effect) reason to opt for 
something else.

 >	2) Ships that (in vector) focus on too many arcs waste points
that
 >translate to fewer dice thrown at the enemy. It doesn't matter that
you
 >could attack enemies on all sides if you're destroyed during the
closing
 >actions.

True, but I had (maybe mistakenly) assumed that the argument was 1-arc
was 
worth such and such and that the other arcs weren't worth much at all. 
Whereas I'd say up to 3arcs is as important as their cost suggests,
above 
that more arcs can be helpful though not always necessary (and yes I 
personally wouldn't buy many 6 arc class 3+).

 >	3) A good pilot with a decent thrust can use oblique manouvres
and
 >the ability to rotate to face cheaply to be where they need to be with
guns
 >pointed in the right direction. If the enemy tries splitting up to
split
 >your fire, you focus your formation on the few enemy ships you can
bear on,
 >annihilate them, and the next round, annihilate a few others.

Assuming you/your weapons survive that long.

 >They probably can't do as much damage to you (they're spread
 > out usually over more than one range band)

Not if they do it well - something for them to aim for is truly
coordinated 
efforts.

 >But again, good >tactics will keep them at enough range
 >such that you can keep them in arc
 >(sometimes this is harder, but it is what you try to achieve).

They're probably thinking the same thing about coordinating those wings
;)

 >	4) Because you concentrate fire on a few CL-->BC class ships per
 >turn ....until they are all gone (during fleet engagements),
 >if you can't bear on all of them, that's not a problem. You didn't
want to.
 >You target them because many of them have weapons that don't do damage
until
 >Range 24 (or not much anyway) and aren't really dangerous till range
12-18.

I think the NSL for one may have a few words to make about that
assertion ;)

 >If your larger fleet guns can kill them before that range, then those
points
 >go before they threaten or damage your ships.

I'm guessing now that you mean 1-arc-ers in general and not the KV (the
KV 
limited range not really fitting with this statement).

 >Escorts get a low priority because they can usually be popped
 >as an afterthought or with a spare weapon. They aren't very
threatening...
 >You kill early the manouverable, hard hitting units
 >(cruisers, battlecruisers, some fast BB designs). So then maintaining
arc on
 >the remaining forces is easier.

You make strong points Tom and you've obviously thought about it a fair 
bit, but it almost feels like you've forgotten the other guy is working 
just as hard from his end to make sure you don't get the chance to do
all 
this stuff with impunity.

If the argument here is over "1-arc wonders" vs anything with 2+ arcs on

their weapons then I just don't agree that the extra arcs aren't worth
it 
given all the freedom they hand you. If you mean "limited arcs" in that
all 
guns have less than 3-arcs, though they have a higher than average
number 
of 1-arcs on board then I'd be more inclined to treat you as a normal
fleet 
and just exploit your 1-arc weakness when an opportunity arises.

 >Oerjan once said that in vector (I'm making up numbers, he'll fill in
the
 >ones he believes I'm sure), a second arc is worth (say) 20%, a third
arc
 >maybe 10%, and beyond that are almost insignificant. (A three arc
weapon is
 >nearly as good as a 6 arc weapon with vector turn rules!). I was just
 >wondering what numbers he would have attached. The point was the
multi-arc
 >costings are for cinematic and vector (because it allows faster turns)
 >provides less of a penalty to smaller arc weapons and thus the cost
for more
 >arcs should be less.

Maybe for 4-6 arcs on the big guns, but up to 3arcs I really don't think

so. On the flip side what does Oerjan think the extra arcs are worth in 
cinematic?

 >I'll gladly take a DIY human fleet with restricted arcs and more throw
 >weight (dice) vs. a multi-arc human fleet identical in most other
respects
 >in a PBeM...

Give me 12 months to finish my thesis and you're on! ;)

Cheers

Beth

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Elizabeth Fulton
c/o CSIRO Division of Marine Research
GPO Box 1538
HOBART
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email: beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au