Re: Pre-measuring things

I had a much more elegant message drafted up and was about to send when
my mailer died. <sigh> This is a poor substitute due to time (or lack
thereof).

Mikko Kurki-Suonio wrote:
> 
> >Not that this is directed at anyone in particular, but have you
noticed
> >that the people who are the most against pre-measurement often happen
> >to be the same ones who have no problems eyeballing distances?  To a
> >new wargamer the feeling is not only are they at a tactical
disadvantage
> >but they are also at a severe "calibrated eyeball" disadvantage also.
> 
> Frankly, no. Just last Friday I lost the game because I couldn't
eyeball
> the length of the gaming table. And it's my own bloody table to boot!
I've
> had it for 15 years! And I couldn't remember how long it was. Because
I
> don't like to base my tactics on gamesmanship like that.

It seems to me that you are unnecessarily handicapping yourself in this
particular matter.

I have to ask, if you could not remember the size of your table and
someone
came to play who didn't pre-measure but could judge the length/breadth
of
your table, and you lost the game, would you blame it on their ability
to
measure over yours? Would you consider this ungamesmanlike conduct on
their
part, being able to Mk I eyeball judge better than you?

> I also happen to play with a professional carpenter, and he's very
much
> pro-pre-measure (and likes to win).

I don't understand. What is it you are trying to imply with this
statement
about his being a carpenter? That he can Mk I eyeball judge things to a
fair degree of accuracy? Has he explained why he likes to premeasure?

Everyone likes to win. I do, although I've lost more games than I can
count,
definitely more than I've won. And while I like to win, what's more
important
was how the game was played, not that I won. 

> What I did notice, once, was when we were using a BattleMaster map as
the
> background in a pinch. I didn't pay any attention to the hexes printed
on
> it, because I was mentally adjusted to playing a miniatures game.
> 
> However, all the PRO-pre-measurement guys were mentally counting the
hexes
> for a rather good approximation of distances... I lost.

I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but....there had to be more going on
than simply not pre-measuring to be the reason for the loss of the games
above. I really don't think you can make broad, sweeping statements that
you lost solely because your opponents pre-measured or had better
approximation of distances involved and you were not able to judge the
same
distances as well. 

If the pre-measuring guys were counting hexes, they were only getting,
as you noted, a "good approximation" of the distances involved. That's
not as accurate as actually taking a measuring tool and getting an exact
reading. You were not using the hexes to judge distance. What were you
using? Or were you using anything at all? Even your mind's eye? (which
I would find very difficult to believe if you weren't)

When you judge distances and do NOT pre-measure, how do you do it? In
ship lengths? Such as, oh, taking a NAC battleship and seeing in your
mind's eye how many NAC battleship lengths it is to the target? And
judge
based on that which target is closer and in which range band? Or do you
just randomly assign targets without having ANY idea what range band
those targets are in?

> For me, the visual spectacle and simple seat'o'pants playing, a
friendly,
> relaxed game are the thing. I don't particularly care for winning or
> losing, as long as the game is interesting.

Well, as I said above, I like to win, but it's not the end-all be-all of
gaming. If the game is fun and interesting, I don't mind losing, either.
If the game is dull and boring, there is no victory in winning for me.

> As for realism, well, just knowing the distance doesn't cut the
mustard in
> real life.
> 
> E.g. assault rifles have effective range of 300 yards. Hands up, who'd
> stand 301 yards away and let me shoot at him? One might be ballsy
enough
> to stand 400 yards away, but that's already a clearly visible
difference
> -- not the hair's breadth pre-measuring and rigid rules would allow.

You said *effective* range is 300 yards. Max range is a bit further than
that, no? Only a fool would stand at 301 yards and think they wouldn't
be
hit. A hit would not be guaranteed, but there is still the very real
possibility of it happening.

> E.g. I might know that the forward bunker is exactly 48 yards from my
> starting position and 53 from the opposing team's -- but I don't know
for
> sure I'll be there first, even on a level Sup'Air field much less in
the
> woods. Even with the rather unrealistic referee-given start signal.

No, you don't know you'll be there first. There are far, far too many
other variables to take into consideration. The other team may move
faster. The terrain between you and them. Someone tripping and falling,
causing them to 'waste time' getting back up again.

Most of the people who game and/or are on this list are not professional
soldiers. Instead they are arm-chair warriors (if I may use the term).
They
aren't trained to judge distances to such a high degree of accuracy (I
am,
of course, presuming your average soldier is trained to know and/or
judge
distances fairly well; otherwise if you know the range of an enemy's
weapon
to be X and you think you're at X+1 but mis-judge and are at X-1, you're
not going to get many future opportunities to judge distances
correctly).
Gaming is both part entertainment, part simulation, part mental
exercise.
One way I see premeasuring is that it allows the untrained arm-chair
person
the ability to simulate distances between objectives/targets/whatnot. It
isn't going to make their units move faster, but it will play a role in
how
they deal with their tactics. They can simulate that their units can
judge
the distances more accurately this way. 

Another thing I think about pre-measuring is that it makes everything
equal
for all involved. People who don't like to premeasure can take on that
handicap if they want. Or not. If it doesn't noticeably slow the game
down
(and my experience, as noted in another msg, it hasn't really), then not
a
big deal. If you have two people who do not pre-measure, and one wins
over
the other, are you going to say that it was because the victor was able
to
judge distances better, that that was the sole reason for the victory?
Not
everyone can Mk I eyeball judge distances to the same degree of
accuracy,
even if all parties involved are not for premeasuring. Premeasuring, on
the otherhand, puts everything even, even between people who are not as
accurate as some others.

Well, another two cents worth. I'm up to four cents today. Better stop
before I go broke!

Mk