Re: How big is a troopship? [DS/FT/SG2] (and what it all means)

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Thomas Barclay wrote:

[Lots of really sensable and logical info snipped]

> Note though that a 160 Mass transport (the ship will be bigger) is
> starting to get into DN/SDN range and that is only for one battalion
> and all shipped in cold sleep!

Why put all eggs in one basket? Why not do a mix of ships like USMC
MEU's 
do? They comprise 3-4 ships and are a reinforced Battalion, a composite 
aircraft sqdn, and support units. 

Use several types of ships. One as a full up stores ship that doesn't 
have to hang around the whole time. If there are protracted operations, 
it hoofs it back to supply bases picks up more gear and hoofs it back to

keep the supplies coming. 

You are going to need some sort of Ship to provide the aviation assets, 
why not a light carrier? Another variety of assault ship would be needed

to carry the additional heavy assets (Artillery, Medical units, etc). 

Why not break the forces down so you can do more mixing and matching. 

Current MEUS have the following

a LHA or LHD (Landing Helicopter Assault) 1500+ troops, 1-3 landing
craft 
	35 helecopters/VSTOLs
a LPD (Landing platform Dock) or LSD Carry More troops, less helos and 
landing craft no fixed wing. 
a AFS (Combat Stores Ship) carries supplies and combat gear for the 
deployed troops. 

Obviously the landing craft and helecopters would amalgamate into larger

landing shuttles. Some would be quite large like the LCACs are, others 
would be smaller squad base sizes and would fill the role of the LCU's . 

One could add to the task force transports and commandships. 
Both have landing craft/helos (Shuttles) for the transfer of 
men/equipment ashore. 

> With this, you'd want to be able to land about at least a full
> Battalion which means landing 150 mass which means using about another
> 40 Mass in landers.

Even at D-Day we never got entire battalions down in one go. Each beach 
got a company at a time. The heavy craft just can't go in on an opposed 
landing if the red force has big guns to challenge them. But if you can 
land on the other end of the continent where red force isn't, why not 
land there, set up your supply base and use tactical transport to ferry 
in the heavy stuff piecemeal. You are in orbit, so you've killed his 
spysats. How the hell does he know you've landed there. While you are 
bringing in the heavy stuff and your engineers are prepping some surface

fields for basic landing facilities, Red force is scouring the planet 
with scouts trying to figure out where the hell you are. Natrually this 
is scenario driven, you may not have the option of landing there, or you

need a faster tempo. Still it all depends. 

> So.... A Brigade might be about 720 Mass.

The tactically deployable elements. 

> THAT is a lot of mass. THAT is an asset worth killing for an enemy
> (the ship cost is quite high). THAT is worth defending. THAT dwarfs
> SDNs. Transports in the GZGverse would far outsize warships (think DD
> vs Supertanker for an analogy). And that's only arriving to a fight
> with maybe 2300 guys.

> And Note I've ignored the ortillery aspects of things as well as the
> need to protect these large transports - imagine the escort groups!

Any Amphibious force is going to go in only once the oppsing naval
forces 
have been creamed from the area. If the naval battle goes badly, the 
amphibious operation is always a no go. Look at Midway and the
Falklands. 
both had a naval battle in the offing. One (Midway) had it decided 
against the landing forces, the japanese turned the amphibious force 
around. In the falklands the Argies started to challenge the british
navy 
with surface assests. A torpedo shot solved that.

Sure, there will be some battles where the Red force gets close to your 
amphib force but if he does, you are extremely stupid. 

> And imagine the supply vessels - since the numbers above include but
> one months ops supplies, or two weeks in high tempo ops. So we're
> talking hundreds of points worth of supply to supply a six month
> deployment of a Brigade.

I threw together a sample AK type ship..
160 mass
2 thrust
fragile hull 16 damage points
4 PDS
1 25 Mass Lander (for a modicom of transport)
70 tons cargo space 1750 CS. (dump the lander and it shoots to 2500 CS)

Thats 116 size 3 vehicles stored in the hold. You basically have to
start 
pulling the once closest to the shuttle into it and start landing them. 
I'd expect a containerized system could net you more cargo capacity due 
to efficiency. But you don't containerize tanks, or would you?... 

In the case of transport trucks, they'ed go on loaded. Some of the Cargo

space would make sense to use for temporary troops. Another thing to
note 
is that an auxillary ship isn't going to have the same crew compliment
as 
a military vessel. Some of that "space" would be fine for transient crew

like supply truck drivers and such. 

> Local troops have a lot of place in this universe, as do lower tech
> locally manufactured arms (esp vehicles!). Also, planetary invasions
> are BRUTAL. Only ever done on colony worlds with low pop and low air

But you can just pound any large concentration of force from orbit.
Which 
means your localized resistance at your goal is most likely light. Which

makes your campaign easy. Militia don't create much of a speed bump to a

strong landing force. Remember Somalia. The Marines came in with a 
security force and "took" that beach. The LCAC"s just came in and
started 
burping troops. 

The big problem with defending a large planet is that you can't defend 
all the key points. A highly mobile forcecan land anywhere it wants when

coming from orbit. 

One also can't expect to have a 200,000 man army on every planet. How do

you keep that large an army supplied, let alone there in the first
place? 
If the Blue force has taken the orbit, he has you under observation. You

had better have a big supply cache. I'll bet that you don't have much 
in the way of forces coming in to supply you whith his warships in 
orbit.	If the planet is occupied and blue force is taking it back,
expect 
problems if the population wants you gone too. 

> defence. To assault say even one country on a major colony of 20
> million would take at least 200,000 regular troops - which is about
> 1000 of these 720 point transports, plus an ungodly amount of supply
> points. AND an awful escort group.

You'd have 4 MEU's for taking the landing field and securing it. Once 
that is done you start looking at the purpose build transports. More
akin 
to freighters. 

Now I think that if you were to build a purpose built craft that just 
carries vehicles as cargo and gear as cargo, you'd use that for a 
sustained campaign. You'd find your numbers (and sizes) for ships to 
get more reasonable. This allows a denser load and makes the landing the

critical point of the campaign. Once you have the landing facilities,
you 
can start landing the larger transport craft that require specialized 
unloading facilites. 

Look at Andrew Toppan's page on the USN. 
www.uss-salem.org/worldnav/usa/aux_seal.htm

These ships are much bigger and carry quite a bit more in the way of
gear 
than an assault ship does. They require hard cargo facilites. Some 
are RORO's like those used to transport cars from Japan, others are 
converted Container ships. These would be the follow on force to build
your 
8,000 man force to a 200,000 man force for taking an entire planet that 
wasn't lightly populated. 

> The math bears out small forces in the GZG verse - with most battles
> being left up to local colonial or militia forces. Regular forces
> deployed in small units (company or B'n at most usually) and being of
> high quality and high-tech kit. They are also too valuable to lose
> frivolously and this would affect tactical thinking - ie victory

Most of the fights we have done have been pretty small. Iraq and Grenada

are the exceptions to the MEU exclusivity. 

> conditions. There will be something to be said for having 10,000
> screaming IF militia - if all they have to oppose are 150 top of the
> line NAC forces.... because the NAC can't afford to be everywhere at
> once.

150 Top of the line NAC forces would be used in a raid, if you camp the 
10,000 troops on one objective, I doubt the IF force would do that. They

have to protect points all over a planet. Its probably a mostly agrarian

planet too. If it has any kind of industrial base, its going to be
pretty 
limited. If its focused, and the IF guy concentrates his forces, bomb
his 
ass. Thats why you have aerospace fighters. 

2,000 Troops with first rate gear and air/ortillery support are another 
thing entirely. I'd hate to be the 10,000 troop force sitting at the 
bottom of that gravity well. Shit flows down hill fast when it comes
from 
orbit. 

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