Re: GZG DS2 Mikko: Genres for DS2.

Mikko Kurki-Suonio <maxxon@swob.dna.fi> wrote:
>"An alarm pinged to warn him that a laser rangefinder painted
>Deathdealer's armour. The gunnery computer was already rotating the
turret,
>while a pulsing red highlight arrowed the source: an anti-tank missile
>launched twelve-hundred meters away..." - David Drake, Rolling Hot,
1989
    Notice the date? His older stories use wireguided missiles! In this
later story, he's upgraded his missile technology! But the way that the
tank
is dealing with the missile is still the same, which is take out the
operator and the missile as the missile is launching, not as the missile
is
about to impact! Note that the turret is being aimed at the laser
source,
indicating that the computer thinks that the missile is a laser beam
rider
much like Hellfire directed by it's own launcher.
    Unfortunately, this laser beam rider missile system still doesn't
match
the capabilities of DSII GMS, which are high speed, fire and forget,
self
homing missiles. These GMS can only be defeated by ECM, PDS or armour.
    By the way, the laser detector is technology being developed now to
counter laser homing missiles, like the older Hellfire missile systems.
The
newer Hellfire missiles use millimeter wave (MMW) radar and are self
homing.
MMW Hellfire can't be defeated by this method, except by standard DSII
systems.

>"post-mounted missile systems, both guided and hypervelocity" - David
>Drake, The Warrior, 1991
    Notice the date? David Drake has upgraded his technology since the
older
stories. Notice also that "both guided and hypervelocity" as not being
one
missile system, but of two separate missile systems. This clearly
implies
that the guided system is slower, while the hypervelocity system is
faster
but not guided.

>Technically, these bits don't speak of the actual guidance mechanism,
but
>I submit my final bit of evidence as to *how* they are dealt with:
>"Reconnaissance satellites, computer fire control, and powerguns
combined
>to claw *missiles* out of the air before they were dangerous. ...
locked
>defensive weapons on the *missiles* in microseconds. And a single
>light-swift tribarrel could hose any *missile* with enough fire in its
>seconds of flight to disintegrate it." - David Drake, Interlude:
>Supertanks, 1979 (emphasis added)
    Thanks for the quote! I was going to quote it back to you! It's in
the
short story collection I also have. Where it ALSO speaks about wire
guided
missiles. You need to read it more carefully. The technique of firing at
the
operator and the missile with main gun and MG is a technique developed
by
the Israelis in the Arab-Israeli conflicts and transferred to the
Americans.
David Drake has logically extended this technique to fire light speed
power
guns at the missile operator, so that the operator ducks and the missile
misses.

>>     HS combat cars were open topped because they were based on a old
Soviet
>> apc which was open topped. I get the impression David Drake didn't
like
>> M113s!
>
>"Hammer's vehicles were designed around the M48s and [M113] ACAVs I'd
>ridden..." - David Drake, Afterword to Counting the Cost, 1987
    That's right, but if you look closer in the stories, you will find
that
the combat cars are completely open topped at the rear, which is not
quite
the case with the M113 and the M113 ACAV, which had hatches. David Drake
has
extended it quite logically and completely open topped the rear of the
combat cars. The driver has overhead protection, the soldiers don't!
    In the short story collection, they mention open topped combat cars
frequently. In one story, a air conditioned, fully enclosed combat car
was
mentioned as being the bait to trap some enemy, while the open topped
combat
cars responded to the ambushers.

>>     HS also isn't NBC capable. Their rules of war didn't allow NBC
>>weapons to be used.
>List of examples snipped.
    Yes, they used Nukes and chemicals against others but themselves
were
not capable of resisting it, which is what I meant to say. For example,
open
topped combat cars and body armour and helmets that were not NBC
resistant,
but were open construction. There is a quote in the short story
collection,
where a soldier's beard is shown hanging underneath his helmet. Also, in
the
short story collection, David Drake describes the open REAR howitzers.

>"The political soldiers had naively failed to consider gas. The
Slammers
>introduced KD7 into the forced ventilation system, then spent three
days
>neutralising the toxin..." - David Drake, Standing Down, 1979
    Three days neutralising it. No NBC protection equipment! Not that
they
needed it, of course, in that situation! In another story in the short
story
collection, they detonate a gas shell in a alien lair and blow the gas
deeper into it. None of the team put on protective clothing or closed
hatches. Therefore, if Biological or chemical attacks were used against
Hammer's Slammers, they would be in deep trouble!
    Also their Nuclear dampers, while not described that well, obviously
weren't cheap. They were not used by plattoons of vehicles. They seemed
to
be a large, expensive item of gear. In that same story, no nuclear
damper
was provided to the troops. Therefore, no nuclear protection. Therefore,
as
whole, HS were not NBC capable just NBC armed.

>>     In David Drake's military experience, there was no terrain
following,
>>no Nap of Earth flying and no multimach ground attack aeroplanes.
>"Similar weaponry was mounted on helicopters which skimmed battlefields
>in the nape of the earth, protected by terrain irregularities. At the
last
>instant the birds could pop up to rip tanks with their missiles."
-David
>Drake, Interlude: Supertanks, 1979
    Yes, there were helicopters, but no planes that could fly NOE in his
experience! NOE aircraft techniques were developed later. This interlude
is
in my short story collection. The technique of firing main gun and MG at
helicopter which were having to stay still to wire guide missiles is
still
effective.

>>     They didn't have PDS in the stories! Therefore it's not allowed
by
>> the genre!
>Erm, isn't shooting down missiles exactly what PDS does? Fill in the
>blank: If a computer-controlled tribarrel automatically tries to shoot
>down an incoming missile, it is functioning as a ... system.
    Sorry, it's not shooting an incoming missile. It's shooting at the
operator and the missile while it's starting to launch. It's a logical
extension of the Israeli technique. Read further and see that the
computer
control is causing the tribarrel to fire at the satellite detected
launching
flash, NOT at the missile in full flight. This is significantly easier
to
do than to intercept a high speed, fire and forget, missile, just before
it
impacts with your vehicle. The PDS system shoots down missiles as they
are
about to impact NOT as they launch.

>Maybe your Drake books came from an alternate universe?
    I haven't got the latest ones where David Drake changes his
technology.
I've got his older short story collection which is based on his
experiences
in Vietnam, logically extended into the future.
    So my points were correct. HS were not NBC capable, they had open
topped
combat cars and they had no PDS. The HS genre also has no DSII GMS.
Their
nuclear damper/s were expensive and not provided to all troops, only to
some
troops.
    Another thing was mentioned in the short story collection was the
immense ranges of HS powerguns. In the first story, the powergun beams
were
being shot from 20Km away at targets in the open. The HS people also
mentioned that line of sight was the only limitation for their powergun
beams. Which I think is very impressive! Imagine being able to shoot
from
one end of a 8' table to the other from a vehicle on a hill!

Andrew Martin
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