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Re: DSII Question- Obstacles

From: Brian Burger <burger00@c...>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:02:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: DSII Question- Obstacles

On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:

> Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty: 
> > Ouch, ouch ouch...we're getting into WW1 here...thing to do w/
someone who
> > lavishes this much care onto his fortifications is to bypass them -
> > orbital-inserted PI to land in his rear area, swing around and
> > his forts w/ fast armour, use air-mobile assets to again hit his
> > etc. Think Magaino (sp!) Line, and the advance thru the Ardennes by
> > Germans...
> Maginot actually, but I know what you meant. Unspoken assumption: You 
> are somewhere he can't do that (for example, where he does not 
> possess air or orbital superiority, or in an alien climate which is 
> not favorable to operations other than groundpounding, or you are out 
> on the rim and these sorts of assets aren't available). BTW, if PA 
> drop troops are elite assets, then risking them in a high ADE 
> insertion is not cost effective. Until you've surpressed ADE, they 
> may not be worth inserting even given they may strike lighter 
> defences. 
AFAIK, ADE doesn't affect PA - they come in too damned fast and hard for
any practical interception...Either way, I see what you mean about these
assets being unavailable - in low-level/low-tech theatres, barbed wire
trenches are going to be more effective and harder to counter than a
high-tech, well supported theatre. If I can't just drop PA on top of
fortifications, you're going to be building more fortifications...
> > DFFGs and direct-fire weapons don't destroy minefields - but
> > attacks do - just set up an open sheaf mission on top of those
> > then send in the engineers to clear the rest after the arty clears
> > mines...or use those direct-fire weapons on the wire/tank traps, and
> > arty on the mines.
> Assuming the enemy doesn't employ counterbattery on you as you try to 
> take out the mines. It might be a risk to use your arty assets this 
> way, or too time consuming, or you might not have them, or the 
> environment may not allow. But if you can, great. Or use a CEV with a 
> mineclearing charge like the US used in the gulf war.
I forgot to include CEVs - I was just dealing w/ arty mineclearing.
engineers clearing minefields is lower-tech and easier, but they can be
shot up while doing it...

And counter-battery fire is much harder against off-table assets - and
given the cost of a C-Batt Radar, they're going to be very rare - I know
have never used one...

> > High-tech 'sticky-wire' sounds interesting - maybe have a couple
kinds of
> > wire, from 'old-style' steel/alloy razorwire, then exotic-materials
> > (Hammer's Slammers has 'berilium (sp) netting'), up to 'sticky' or
> > 'smart' wire - imagine nano-tech wire that moves to grab and cut
> > moving into its range - nasty...
> That's one I'll remember!
Glad you like's beyond the general tech-level of 'stock' DS2,
and that of most military-SF...

> > Stationary defences are always going to be important _somewhere_,
even if
> > not everywhere. Choke-points, vital bridges or crossroads,
perimeters -
> > even simple PoW/refugee camps...the technology used will progress
> > with the times, although probably slower - barbed wire is still
> > unchanged from ww1, razor wire is newer but not as widespread...
> Soft fleshy people haven't changed much either, so it still works. 
> > If you're going to bury a device, why not make it a standard
> > Just wax the sucker, don't get fancy...besides, a big ECM-mine might
> > up your electronics too, if they're too close...
> True. But if you remember that radiated power falls off as a cube of 
> radius, you'll realize the danger drops off real fast from this type 
> of threat so it could be quite a viable AV weapon. And it may be a 
> lot smaller than a standard mine or conceivably more effective since 
> conventional armour might not stop it....
Hadn't thought of the amount of drop-off - maybe an ECM AV mine is
- care to work up some stats for DS2 and SG2 and post them? I recall
reading somewhere about a US arty shell, present day, called a
"Jabberwocky" - drop it in the enemy's rear area, it starts broadcasting
ECM jamming to screw up the communication nets...just bury one of them,
you have your ECM mine...

Anything that bypasses armour is good, after all - providing you're
it on the other side...

> > Regarding pits - in DS2 scale, 1" = 100 meters - that's either a
> > large pit, or it's not worth digging - it just won't show up at
> > level of terrain detail...for SG2, though...I like the idea of
> > monomolecular-spiked tiger-traps...high-tech Viet Cong?
> Exactly. A Monofilament Nail Extruder or something industrial could 
> produce these spikes for your high-tech (but poorly equiped in a 
> military sense) rebels and insurgents.   
Interesting, and very nasty...

> > The Jumping Mines of DS2 attack anything, including VTOLs in Low
> > there's already a missle-mine thing...
> Didn't know that. Thanks. 
> > Personally, I'd avoid specialty anti-grav weapons as too inflexible
- I
> > don't field grav units, none of my opponents do, so I'd rather have
> > mines and stock missles that can hunt down anything I want to aim
> > at...if I face someone fielding grav forces, a GMS/L inf team will
> > just as well on his grav-panzers as on my regular opponents tracked
> > ACV AFVs...Grav-specific weaponry would be heavily background
dependant -
> > in a 'stock' DS2 game, its of limited utility, if you're playing
> > RenLeg-DS2, it's vital - everyone has grav tanks.
> Exactly. If grav vehicles are common, grav countermeasures are cost 
> effective.  
> > One thing I've been thinking of, for DS2 - as I read the rules,
> > have IFF abilities, so if you want to move one of your own units
> > your minefield, you can. This leads to interesting implications -
> > 'offensive' minesowing, probably via artillery. Want to stop an
> > down a road, but don't want to or can't get troops there fast? Drop
> > minefield or three...Mine the insides of your own compounds to chop
> > intruders and drop troops, but you can conduct normal ops...this
> > on your level of command & control, of course - does _everyone_ have
> > IFF unit _all the time?_ Even w/ minimal IFF, offensive mining has
> > uses, out in the field...Hold up enemy advances long enough to
> > a sector...Thoughts or comments?
> Nasty. Hope your arty boys program the latest IFF codes into the 
> mines.... (Note that this might cause effectiveness problems because 
> most IFF are query response as I understand it and if the mine 
> queried and enemy vehicle might well reverse course or set of a 
> reactve charge or something (I don't know what exactly) to counter 
> the mine before it fired). And you wouldn't want to be the LRRP that 
> came in after being out in the boonies a month when they'd changed 
> the minefield IFF a week ago..... (ouch!)
If the LRRPs know of the minefield, they're going to know the IFF codes
change randomly - they'd call in and get the new codes, hopefully...

And even if the enemy does realize the existance of the mines, it
matter - they'll have accomplished the goal of slowing the enemy down.
Whether they move to go around the mines, move arty up to shell them, or
move engineering assets up to neutralize them, the advance is stalled or
slowed - buying you time to get a counterattack or better defences in
place...and if the enemy simply moves forces thru the minefields,
accepting the losses, so much the better - the mines are still there, to
cut up his retreat when his weakened column is forced to fall back...The
addition of IFF tech to mines makes them much more useful. Most defences
are as hard for the defender to get out of as the attacker to get in -
IFF minefields...

(That last sentence sounded like an ad for the damn things, didn't it?
"Buy Delft Armoury's NEW EX-1200 smartmine system - complete protection
for your firebases!!" :)

Real World Interupt: What about this mine-banning treaty just signed?
Princess Di one? Any chance of it surviving w/o the Yanks on-side? It's
nice, idealistic document, but...


Brian (

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