Re: Babylon 5 Wars (LONG)

On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Christopher Weuve wrote:
 
> My apologies -- I did not state the problem clearly. The rotation
rules (i.e., 
> ships spinning around their center of gravity) are different from the
turning 
> rules.  

Ok, I wasn't aware they had rules for that. Most games just ignore it...

> The rotation rules limit a ship that is coasting to turning EXACTLY 
> 180 degrees which takes EXACTLY three turns.	Ships are allowed to
apply 
> thrust ONLY when facing their direction of travel or 180 degrees away
from 
> their direction of travel.  The movement system cannot handle a
rotation of, 
> say, 120 degrees, followed by thrusting.  Note that ships at dead stop
CAN 
> rotate in place, using a different procedure entirely.  

Now, THAT sounds contrived. I'm beginning to understand your gripes :-)
Is it 3D or not, btw? 

> Good point.  I do find it odd, however, that people would rather play
a game 
> that have ten pages of movement rules to memorize, rather than a
system which 
> has two pages of rules but offers more complexity in the effects. 

As our schooling system demonstrates, memorization does not require 
understanding :-)
 
> Well, yes, people are going to have to think a little bit.  If I
didn't want 
> to think, I would be playing Super Mario Brothers.  <grin>
 
Different people have rather different opinions what "a little thinking"

amounts to. Even though I *can* calculate newtonian movement, I don't 
*want* to. If I end up losing every time because I didn't stop the game 
to break out my calculator, I won't be playing too many times.

> why play tactical space games?  If the things that make a tactical
space 
> combat game different from playing _Ironclads_ are stripped out, then
why play 
> it at all? 

Personally, I play games for fun.  If space ironclads with cutlasses and
boarding actions is fun, then I play it. 

> My point was that once you decide that science (i.e. physics) has no
place in 
> the game, magic becomes just as valid.

Hmmm... I don't quite agree. Let's look at it this way: B5 has FTL
travel
and psionics. As far as we understand physics, that's impossible. So, we
don't have to follow physics in any other matter either. Let's add
Centauri Battle Spells! 

Wrong.

The game world has to be consistent. In B5 I agree the movement should
be 
as realistic as possible, because it's a big point *in* *the* *show*.
But if 
you're doing a Star Wars/Trek game, it has to model that reality, not 
Real Life(tm). Just because you have to break one rule doesn't mean you
get carte blanche to break every rule you like.
 
> Maybe I spend too much time hanging out with historical gamers, but I
really 
> don't think the science fiction gaming community as a whole
understands why 
> they can't get any respect from the historical gaming community,
especially 
> considering there is far more overlap than I think both sides are
aware of.  

I play both, and IMHO both sides disrespect the other for all the wrong 
reasons (and some right ones too). Neither bothers to understand what
the 
other wants from a game, nor is willing to respect their choice.

Historical gamers tend to hold accurate simulation most important. Fine.
SF/Fantasy gamers are typically looking for a game that works in its own

reality. They're looking for entertainment rather than educational
value.

What's wrong with that? Why is a game of lesser value than a simulation?

It isn't -- except in the view of some narrow-minded individuals. Chess 
is (very loosely) based on ancient warfare. It doesn't accurately 
simulate *anything*. Yet it's THE most respected game on earth.

> Michael Friend had an editorial in a recent _Vindicator_ (http://
> www.millcomm.com/~forhan/vindicator.html) arguing that historical
gamers are 
> are afriad to play something without a historical reference point,
whereas 
> sceince fiction gamers are more daring.  

Well, there are different types of people in each sect. There are 
historical gamers who willingly play hypothetical scenarios. There are 
SF/Fantasy players who won't try anything not found in the Official 
Rulebook(tm). For every SF/Fantasy gamer who won't let me field my
non-GW 
figures, there is a historical gamer who won't play with me because my 
hussars' belt buckles are the wrong color.

> Historical gamers are not 
> interested in such games because they are not valid simulations and
have no 
> educational value.  
 
Glad you make the distinction. Abstract problem solving always has 
educational value, but it is true some SF/Fantasy gamers and companies 
twist the games' internal logic every time they feel the urge.

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