RE: Vietnam and modern combat

At 2:04 PM +1000 4/26/04, <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
>
>I had D4 armour, crap weapons, green and yellow troops, mostly 2s 
>and 3s. It can be done. He assumed I would have done one thing and I 
>had done something else. That happens in war... ask the French in 
>Indochina how likely it was the Vietnamese would have man handled 
>artillery pieces through the jungle to the top of hills.

Those froggie forces made the following mistakes:

1. Let their artillery get captured the first or second day.
2. Had next to nothing for airpower in theatre.
3. Allowed themselves to get encircled and baited into staying (One 
Marine buddy upstairs who spent a lot of time in ARVN said the VC had 
mostly sappers on sight after the first couple of days for working at 
the perimeter vs lots of regular infantry).

>
>Does that mean you wouldn't have let it happen? Given that the 
>players knew an attack would come (its a game after all), but "in 
>reality" it was a surprise attack why would the troops not have been 
>letting their hair down, we've seen plenty of pics of Brits and 
>Iraqi children playing soccer, for example.
>

Peacekeeping mode vs area warfighting mode. It's two distinct
situations.

>  > Not really.  Somalis can't shoot for shit and have
>>  very primitive tactics.  What you need is about a 50
>>  or 100 to 1 figure ratio.  That's what it took in
>>  Mogadishu.	Conventional training exists for a reason.
>>   It makes troops far better than the linearity of the
>>  Stargrunt troop quality system represents.	Your
>>  average Fedayeen is probably rolling a d2 for troop
>>  quality at best.
>
>I agree the average rabble would be, but I respectfully disagree 
>that it will apply to all individuals, you don't grow up in that 
>situation without getting some smarts. Have 10 squads of Yellow-2 
>with improvised or basic guns and then the single "body guard" group 
>that are much better "trained" (by life). I have read a lot about 
>various situations now and in the past and I'm yet to find one that 
>breaks the pattern.
>

I'm probably pretty damn good compared to the average Somali and I 
probably only rate a D4 with my lack of training (self study only 
helps so far). Real soldiers like the US army get months of intensive 
training such that as a group they
perform better than the other group. 16 Weeks on how to be a rifleman 
in an infantry unit that's just the basic course is far more than the 
average somali gets. They survive in a nasty environment because 
their opposition is just as crappy too.

Once you get your basic training in the US Army, then you get your 
AIT (Advanced individual training) for your field of work (All 
marines go through the equivalent as a rifleman, then go to their 
specialty). Once you get posted to a unit, the unit spends lots of 
time getting training as a unit. Fort Irwin (NTC) is where the US 
Army sends Mechanized forces (and light infantry I believe, John will 
correct me I'm sure) for intensive training.

Units deploying to Iraq aren't activated shoved on a plane and 
shipped, they run through training for several weeks or more (John, 
how long did you guys run around in field training working out the 
kinks before you shipped out?). They go through so much training that 
when they're in country most of the basic tasks in real combat just 
come naturally.

Heck, responses to fire have gotten so rote that our guys are nailing 
Iraqi's with single  shots or 3 round bursts regardless of 
situations. Accuracy or riflery has risen to an unprecedented level 
in Veteran units in the Army. The Army and Marine forces can tell if 
it's Feyadeen or not based on the use of the automatic mode of the 
rifle. If it's the majority of the magazine, it's Feyadeen 
(regardless of sound of the rifle).

With the Urban Fighting the USMC has been in, compare the casualty 
counts to other Urban combat situations. If we were fighting some 
European Power it'd be different, but it's in the order of 100's to 1 
Marine on average. Arnham was probably closer to 1-2 for the Armored 
(Gerry) Vs Airborne troops in and around Osterbeek and Arnham. The 
1st Airborne guys were grossly outgunned, but still acquitted 
themselves to the Germans.

In military combat training beats will. What was it I saw on TV last 
night from some 3rd ID commander, "insane devotion gets you killed 
and gets you minimal results" or some such. Training trumps that most 
if not all of the time.

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