Re: Missiles was Re: UNSC beta and FB3

--- Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:
> Jared Hilal wrote:
> > >>The problem lies in that the missiles have really dumb seeker
> > >>systems.	They attack the target nearest the target point.  They
> > >>are not capable of discriminating the "Big Kahuna" FCS suite used

> > >>on enemy capital ships from the "Lil' Bopper" FCS suite used on
> > >>PCGs.
> > >
> > >Correct; the smaller ships are assumed to use their inherent ECM
> > >gear to emulate the bigger ships' signatures in order to lure the
> > >missiles away, much like today's wet-navy fleet escort vessels do.

> > >The larger MT missiles have more mass to spare for ECCM gear, so 
> > >are better able to discriminate between targets.
> >
> >That is some really spectacular ECM gear, to be able to emulate half
> >a dozen different signatures simultainiously at no added cost in
MASS
> >or points?
> 
> You don't need to emulate the other signatures very closely when you
> can drown them out instead. Trying to identify the car *behind* the 
> one that just turned its headlights on to full strength in your face 
> and blinded you gives you an idea of how this type of jamming works -

> crude, certainly, but annoyingly effective :-/
> 

But the FB SM rules give the PCG the same decoy abilities if, for
example, a salvo travels on bearing 10 20 MU to its target point, a
capital ship is 5 MU bearing 9 from the salvo and the PCG is 4.75 MU
bearing 3.  The "noise" is behind the salvo, yet it is still decoyed. 
Additionally, there is no way for the PCG to know what the salvo is
homing on.  If the PCG is broadcasting noise in the EM spectrum (for
example), and the SMs are homing on IR signatures, or grav drive
signature, there is no way the the PCGs noise will have any effect. 
Many modern missiles home on multiple signatures specifically to reduce
decoy tactics.

> > >>It is almost as if the seekers are not active until the salvo
> > >>reaches the target point, at which time the sensors become active
> > >>and look for a target.
> > >
> > >There are several long-range ASM and SSM types today which work
> > >exactly like this (going on inertial/GPS navigation until they
> > >reach the target area), so I don't have a problem with it.
> >
> >However, all of those are sea-skimming or nap-of-the-earth, as well
> >as over-the-horizon.  They go on IG/GPS because they *can. not. see.
> >the. target.* for most of their flight.
> 
> Not exactly, no. The real-world anti-ship missiles go on IG/GPS
> mainly because they *want. to. delay. being. detected. by. the. 
> defences. for. as. long. as. possible.*, 

I am sorry, but you are incorrect.  They travel *very low* to delay
detection.  They use IG/GPS/TF to enable their horizon-masked approach
to the expected target area.  If their active sensor systems were
operational, they still could not see the target.

> and going active is a very good way of being detected quickly.

Yes, but only if they are using an active *sensor*.  An active *seeker*
can use a passive *sensor*, and that will not give away the missile's
existence.

> This is just as applicable to space missiles as it is to surface
ones.
> 

Since there is no horizon to hide behind except in the form of
"terrain", no it is not applicable.

> >A better analogy for FT SMs would be systems launched with a LOS to
> >the target, such as air- and surface-launched direct fire ATGMs, and
> >the best analagy would be air-to-air missiles: Line of sight,
> 
> You're talking about short-range air-to-air missiles here. If you
> extend the analogy to include BVR air-to-air missiles, you'll find
the 
> "go to the general target area, turn on seeker, attack target if you 
> can find it" mode of operations used in air-to-air combat as well :-/

Again, you are incorrect.  I am talking about *all* AAMs.  All US and
NATO AAMs, in all range categories, have their *seekers* activated
before launch.	Including the BVR Phoenix.  Some use passive sensors
and some active, but we are talking about seekers, not sensors.

In fact, I do not know of any AAMs that use IG/GPS/TF to travel to a
target area as you describe.  Please name them so that I may research
them.

Same for SAMs.	As far as I know, all use active seeking throughout
their flight, though not all use active sensors.  Please tell me of any
that use IG/GPS/TF so that I may research them as well.

J