Re: Grasers was Re: UNSC beta and FB3

Jared Hilal wrote:

 ><snip OO's argument against EFSB heavy beams v. screens -1 per die per
 >screen level>
 >
 >All of the settings in which we use EFSB-style heavy beams use
integral
 >armor rather than screens.  What we use in these settings is -1 per
 >level per WEAPON, even if the weapon rolls more than 1 die.  How would
 >that compare?

You get the new average reduction percentages by dividing the average 
reduction percentages in my previous post by the number of dice thrown,
so 
depending on how many dice you fire the screens can be anything from 
crippling (1-2 dice, particularly outside range 12) to almost
insignificant 
(4+ dice).

 >>>Since the KV primarily use a weapon category with the same to-hit
 >>>and range mechanics as the P-torp, and the Phalon are limited to 36
 >>>MU with pulsars and PBLs, isn't giving the Hu'Mans another
 >>>*scalable*, *long range* weapon (they already have the scalable B#)
 >>>tipping the balance in the other direction?
 >>
 >>Take another look at the size and cost of these long-ranged weapons
 >>:-/ Yes, the Kraks and Phalons will hopefully get hurt while closing
 >>the range against these weapons; that way they don't completely
 >>overwhelm the humies once they get in close. The same goes for any of
 >>the FB1 forces, of course  - they too will get hurt while closing
 >>with the UNSC ships, but tend to outgun them at short and medium
 >>ranges nstead.
 >
 >Last summer there was a series of threads in which you argued that a
 >relatively small ship with T8 and a 3-arc B5 can stay out range of a
 >ship armed with B3's only while whittling the B3 ship over a long
 >running battle.

As long as the B3 ship doesn't itself have T8 or (preferrably) stronger 
engines, yes; the original discussion assumed that the Phalons and
Kra'Vak 
would use the designs from FB2, and those designs are all thrust-6 or 
slower. Of course, if the humans start building custom-design T8
warships 
with long-range weapons (there aren't any such ships in FB1) there's 
nothing to stop the Kraks and Shellies from doing so as well, and a
B3/T8+ 
(or P-L/T8+ or K-gun/T8+) ship *can* beat a similarly-priced B5/T8 ship.

However, your question was "isn't giving the Hu'Mans another *scalable*,

*long-range* weapon (...) TIPPING THE BALANCE IN THE OTHER DIRECTION?" 
(emphasis added), and the answer to that question is "no". It doesn't do

anything to remove the *existing* imbalance between custom-designed
human 
ships and Fleet Book KV/Phalon ones, but it also doesn't make it any
worse 
than it already is; if anything the Grasers are harder to use for 
extreme-range sniping tactics (since they're so much larger and more 
expensive than similar-ranged beam batteries that the enemy gets a much 
larger force to counter the sniper with).

 >>The very fact that the range bands are different gives the grasers a
 >>quite different performance than the normal beams.
 >
 >Same performance *per range band*, just longer RBs.

This is the same as saying that a range 36 weapon with two range bands
is 
the same as a range 24 weapon with two range bands, or even a 12 mu
weapon 
with two range bands, as long as they all inflict the same damage in
their 
respective first and second range bands.

Sorry Jared, but that's bullshit and you know it. "Performance" is more 
than just "average damage"; the range 36 weapon will have a larger area
in 
which to search for targets and will therefore on average get to fire a 
larger number of shots during the game than the range 24 and range 12
ones 
do - and the number of shots a weapon gets to fire is part of its 
performance, just like the average damage it inflicts per shot it gets
to 
fire is.

 >>>"Rereoll affected by screens" is not a new mechanic, just a twist on
 >>>an old one.
 >>
 >>It is yet another variant for the players to keep track of, and one
 >>many players will forget about in the heat of battle.
 >
 >Most gamers I know are fairly bright, and can keep track  of a lot of
 >rules/variants. Where do you find knuckle-draggers who can't keep
track of
 >a simple variant if it is explicitly spelled out in the main text
 >describing the weapon?

At every gaming convention I've been to, and most gaming groups I've met

have one or more of these players as well. Having to refer to a rulebook

all the time to check which weapons used what rules variant is nearly as

bad as using the wrong rule, even though the exact effect is different 
(slowing the game down to a crawl rather than upsetting the game
balance) :-(

 >>a feature [unpredictable damage] several players have already
 >>complained/warned about),
 >
 >If playtesters have already complained about the 1d6 damage, how about
 >having damage per hit = class, i.e. class 2 does 2 points per hit,
 >class 3 does 3 points per hit, etc.

Could be done, sure. IIRC Full Thrust calls that weapon type "K-guns" or

something like that :-/

 >>You haven't read the ECC7 AARs or other peoples' reactions to the
 >>UNCS beta, then? Most of them expressed worries that a lucky graser
 >>hit would have too much of an impact on a game.

Doh. Sorry about that; I'm confusing this list with the playtest list
again 
:-( The detailed playtest AARs were posted there, not here. My bad.

 >Bail9672 says "the Graser looks to be a very powerful weapon."

This was *before* he had used them in a game, though. As you've probably

seen by now, his reaction after actually using it in a game were... 
somewhat stronger than this, shall we say :-/

 >>(FWIW there were similar complaints about the EFSB heavy beam back
 >>in '97-98, and also about the FB1 Salvo Missiles.)
 >
 >1) I wasn't on the list in 97-98.

That's precisely why I'm telling you about it. Your not being on the
list 
at the time doesn't make the complaints disappear, I'm afraid.

 >>After all, you're not the one who'll have to defend the rules against
 >>people who get their games ruined by munchkins or people who can roll
 >>"6" at will
 >
 >If they really do roll 6's "at will", then this is called "cheating"
or
 >"loaded dice".

Could you please convince Glen Bailey (ie., bail9672) about this for me?

Regards,

Oerjan
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
-Hen3ry