dreadnought thrust was Re: Fighters and Hangers

--- agoodall@att.net wrote:
> Jared wrote:
> 
> > I couldn't find numbers for the older 12" and 13.5", but they would
> > be in line with the 15", which is an older gun, whereas the 14" Mk
> > VII and 16" are 20-30 years newer. 
> 
> I've done extensive work on a Russo-Japanese War version of Full
> Thrust. I set it aside for a time, but recently I've been opening it
> back up.
> 
> The 12" guns at the turn of the previous century may have had
> theoretical ranges close to the 5" you cited (I don't have my Conways
> or Janes available, or Warship International), but actual engagement
> range was far less, with battles opening up at closer to 18,000
> yards. You can chop down your ranges if you know the ranges that most
> battles opened at.

I assume that 5" is a typo and you mean the 15".

All of the Jane's that I have list shell weight and muzzle velocity
only, not max range.  Of the Conway's, only the 1922-1946 lists ranges,
and then only for the UK.  1860-1905 lists weights & MV.  1906-1921 has
no armament tables.  1947-1995 has brief descriptions, but no data.

Also, all of the 15" were in mounts with a maximum elevation of 30
degrees and the older 12" and 13.5" were limited to 20-25, while the
newer 14" and 16" mounts went up to 40 degrees and the 8" and smaller
could elevate past 45.	some 6" mounts could go up to 80.  This has
quite an effect on the max. ranges.

As for how the ranges convert to FT, I figure that the engagement
ranges were "effective range", while the list values were "maximum
range".  I feel that this translates into FT as effective range being
the 3rd range  band for K-guns, as this is where you get 50% hits (4+
on d6),and one FT "shot" can represent the firing of several shells,
rather than playing out each round.  It's all up to your individual
tastes

> 
> At any rate, I hadn't thought to look at MT for ideas. Instead, I
> used beams to represent guns, but broke them down into 6" range bands
> instead of 12". Armour was a modifier to the roll, ala shields. I'll
> have to look at MT again, though, as I'm not hugely crazy about this
> idea.
> 

I used PDS for small rapid fire like 20mm Oerlikon and 40mm Bofors.  B1
for 3"-4" DP  and QF.  K-guns started at K1 for 5", K2 for 6", K3 for
8" K4 for 10" and 11", etc..  Big gun single mounts are 1 class lower,
triples 1 class higher, quadruples 2 classes higher (so KGV quad 14s
are K8 and the twin is K6).

This was after FB2 was out, and I was disappointed with the absence of
KV integral armor, as I had been looking forward to it.

The way we treat it is that each level of IA uses 5% of the ship's MASS
per level, with a minimum of 4 MASS per level, and costs 4 pts per
MASS.  If you feel this is too cheap, you can always raise the minimum
to 5 MASS per level and the cost to 5 pts per MASS.  We usually allow
both IA and screens up to level 3, some settings (like B5) up to level
4.

Armor is indicated by a hexagonal box at the end of hull rows in the
same pattern as for stealth hulls as described in the Weap/Def Archive
(2, 1-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4), though we have tried 3, 2-4, 2-3-4, 1-2-3-4. 
When a ship takes a threshold check, roll for each hex of IA.  If the
hex is at the end of a finished row, roll a normal threshold check.  If
the hex is at the end of an unfinished row (damage boxes remaining),
then roll a "protected systems" roll; +1 to target number, as for Core
Systems.  So unlike MT armor, it can be lost.  Luck plays a role and
instances can occur where a ship loses all its armor after the second
threshold, as well as a ship with one hull point remaining and full
armor level.

IA cannot be repaired during a game.  In a campaign, IA can only be
repaired at a fleet base or mobile yard.  Neither a ship nor a tender
can repair armor.  We have been discussing allowing IA repair by tender
or self in a very high tech setting like Andromeda, where the ship can
synthesize almost anything, given a system to plunder for raw
materials.

Against B weapons, IA acts just like screens of the same level.  No
effect against rerolls.

Against K weapons, IA has two effects.
1) subtract the level of the IA from the class of the K-gun to find the
target number for double damage, with a minimum of 1.  E.g. a K5 hits a
ship with IA2.	The normal target number is 5 or less, but against IA2
it is 3 or less.  
2) Subtract the IA level from the total damage done by each hit.  E.g.
The previous example would do 5-2=3 damage or 10-2=8 damage depending
on whether the roll for double damage is successful.  Not that this
makes IA2 immune to K1 fire and IA4 immune to K2 fire.

Another approach to K-guns that we discussed but never tried was to
have a single effect, which is to subtract the level of the IA from the
K-gun class before doubling when determnng damage, but have no effect
aon the target number.	E.g. the K5 always does doule damage on a 5 or
less regardless of IA level, but the damage would be 3 or 6.  This
method gives total immunity to weapons equal to or less than the IA
class, which is why we never tried it.

Against point target weapons that do full dice damage, like PTs and
SMs, subtract the IA level from the TOTAL damage done by each weapon. 
Each SM in a salvo is treated as a separate weapon, but if it is class
2 or 3 or for classed PTs then the subtraction is made from the total,
not each die.  We give both PTs and SMs penetrating rerolls on a "6",
unaffected by IA.

Against area effect weapons that do full dice damage, like PBLs and
Narn E-mines (we use a longer range version of the one in EFSB, but
with same damage system as EFSB), subtract the IA level from EACH DIE. 
IA has no effect on E-Mine rerolls.

Against EFSB-type heavy beams, subtract IA level from each die, but do
not subtract it from rerolls.

Maybe this will give you some ideas.  I am not sure if it is balanced
at either x4 or x5 for cost, but when we use it it is usually in a
setting were everyone uses armor (like B5, BSG, BFG, & home grown)
rather than one side armor and the other screens.

J

PS The K-gun & IA conversion was never ment to represent real world wet
navies, just "inspired by" -type spaceships.