Re: Submittal: Rim World Concordium- Long

Laserlight wrote:

>>>Possibly also known as the Outer Rim Coalition, since they're ORC
ships.
>>
>>Even the Mass 160-200 ones?
>
>i.e. since we already have ORC ships and Rim World Concordium is pretty

>close...

Close yes, but no guitar. The ORC is much larger than the RWC, for
starters :-/

>and I figured you'd have something to say about the economics of the
ORC 
>or RWC or other similar nations building mass 200 ships.

That I do, yes... but I've said it so many times before that I'd feel
like 
a parrot saying them again. Then again, if the CN ever runs into a 
competently handled Kra'Vak heavy battlegroup I suspect that they won't 
have those mass 200 ships for very long - either very slow or relying on

missiles or fighters, or both... could be effective against many
GZGverse 
human fleets, but not against Karla!

***

Todd Pote wrote:

 >RIM WORLD CONCORDIUM

...not to be confused with John Stevens' "Rim World Coalition" (aka
"Late 
20th Century US Navy In Spaaaaace") and the "official" "OutRim
Coalition" :-/

 >GENERAL BACKGROUND:

[...]

 >The Concordium Navy has adopted a minimum asset, maximum punch
 >doctrine.  As a result, there are a large number of smaller vessels
with
 >fire power enough to make vessels several thousand tons larger treat
them
 >with respect.

Provided of course that the CN ships survive to fire at all, and that
their 
missiles hit worthwhile targets.

 >Larger vessels are under construction, both in response to the Kra'Vak
 >danger and the unknown stances of the Phalons and Sa'Vasku.

A response to Kra'Vak which relies as heavily on salvo missiles as the 
Grapeshot strikes me as a bit... odd, shall we say; particularly when 
combined with thrust-2 main drives and screens :-/

 >CONCORDIUM TIME LINE:

 >2179-   Anti-piracy raids by outside naval forces cease within
Concordium
 >territory after the loss with all hands of the NSL battlecruiser
 >"Schaubach"  to two Concordium corvettes during what both sides have
 >referred to as an "unfortunate mistake" by the commanding officers
 >involved.

As Laserlight said, those corvettes were very lucky indeed. While 2 SMRs

*can* destroy an NSL battlecruiser, the odds for this happenng are poor 
even if the NSL ship's PDSs are off-line!

 >2186-   The Concordium Navy begins to build up its strength by adding
 >cruiser and capital units incorporating newer technologies purchased
from
 >the NAC and Core World Corporations.

More likely from the UNSC than from the NAC, judging from the "newer" 
designs below.

 >2189-   The Concordium is shocked when the light cruiser "Forty-niner"
 >returns to Capella heavily damaged and without its escorts. Public
panic
 >ensues when word of the battle of Centaurus leaks out

The RWC public panics on hearing about Kra'Vak were *defeat* at
Centauris. 
Says quite a lot about the RWC public's opinion about the Core Worlds, 
doesn't it? <g>

 >and that there is yet another alien species, the Sa'Vasku, at large.

That's a more likely reason for panic, yes...

 >2191-   The most powerful warship in known space is launched by the
 >Concordium.  The SDN/M, CNS-Grapeshot,

Nice piece of internal propaganda for an isolationist public, but by
2191 a 
200-Mass arsenal barge isn't "the most powerful ship" even in human
space. 
Much less so in Kra'Vak or Phalon space, of course - I wouldn't expect
the 
Grapeshot to survive long if it ever comes up against a Kra'Vak SDN, for

example.

 >makes its maiden cruise accompanied
 >by two "Sloop" class light cruisers and three "Halo" class corvettes. 
The
 >cruise takes the squadron along the rimward edges of NSL space where
it
 >encounters a hunting pack of four Kra'Vak "Kestrel" class
 >cruisers.  Admiral Thaddeus Teach orders an immediate engagement
against
 >the Kestrels by his squadron.  The CN cruisers and 'vettes engage
first
 >resulting in the destruction of one Kestrel and minor damage inflicted
 >against a second in exchange for the loss of one CN cruiser and
 >corvette.  Bypassing the remaining CN ships, the Kestrels move to
engage
 >the "Grapeshot" itself obviously thinking it just another human
 >SDN.	Their mistake resulted in the immediate destruction of all three
 >Kestrels after the Missile Carrier fired its first salvo in anger.

As Laserlight suggested, you must be *extremely* lucky with your
missiles.

Even if the Grapeshot managed to get all 8 SM-ER salvoes to not only hit

something at all but also to spread out evenly between the three targets
to 
avoid overkilling one of them, the probability of 8 missile salvoes 
inflicting enough damage to destroy all three ships past the 10-12 
scatterguns defending them is pretty small. (Yes, 10-12 scatterguns
means 
that the KV flush all they have left; that way they're able to break off

and report the existence of this new Hu'Man design.)

Of course, when the targets are Kra'Vak cruisers the likelyhood of
hitting 
with all 8 salvoes is rather slim to begin with! In Vector a KV cruiser
can 
dodge sideways almost twice as far as the acquisition range of an SM
salvo 
and still end the turn facing any which way they like (so concentrating
the 
missiles in the way you have to have a chance to get all of them on
target 
means that you have a very big chance of not hitting with any of them).
In 
Cinematic the KV would do their utmost to attack the Grapeshot from the 
flank (because attacking down the (F) arc of "just another human SDN" is

very unhealthy for KV light cruisers) so the Grapeshot is unlikely to be

able to even launch more than 4 SM-ER salvoes into the KVs' general 
vicinity even if she predicted the KV manoeuvres perfectly - the other 4

SMLs are very likely to be on the wrong side of the ship...

 >SHIPS OF THE RIMWORLD CONCORDIUM NAVY:
 >
 >Imp Class Scout
 >Mass: 10
 >HI: Avg  (3 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=8
 >FCS x1
 >Submunition pack x1
 >Cost: 33

Legal under the FB2 design rules; under the UNSC "variable hull rows"
rule 
this ship (and all other ships with 3 or fewer hull boxes, including the

small FB1 and FB2 ships) would have to pay as if they had a 3-row hull
instead.

 >Hellfire Class Corvette

Item:				Mass:	Cost
 >Mass: 16			 -	 16
 >HI: Avg   (4 hull)		 4	 8
 >FTL				 2	 4
 >Main Drive: Thrust=4		 3	 6
 >FCS x1		 1	 4
 >Salvo Missile Rack (std) x1	 4	 12
 >Class 1 batt.  x1		 1	 3
 >Cost: 49
------------------------------------------
Total:				15	53

1 Mass unused and 4 pts over the nominal cost. With the stats given,
this 
ship is TMF 15/NPV 52; if you meant to give it an SMR-ER instead of the
SMR 
specified it is TMF 16 but the NPV is 56 rather than 49.

As SMR strikeboats go it is OK (if a bit slow), but like Laserlight said

don't bother naming them :-/

 >Halo Class Corvette
 >(The UNSC were not happy when this class was launched armed with
graser
 >technology)

Legal design. I seriously doubt that the RWC had the resources to
develop 
both grasers and 3-row hulls on their own however, and they couldn't
have 
gotten them from the NAC in time to launch this class by 2191 because
the 
NAC themselves didn't have that good a grip on these technologies at the

time! Far more likely that the RWC got it directly from the UNSC in the 
late 2180s, in which case the UNSC were of course neither unhappy with
nor 
even surprised by this design.

 >Dagger Class Frigate

Legal.

 >Cobra Class Frigate
 >Mass: 24
 >HI: Avg   (7 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=4
 >Armor (1)
 >Pulse Torpedo  x1
 >Class 2 Batt.- 3 arc	x2
 >Cost: 82

Legal. The single-arc P-torp on a thrust-4 hull suggests that you're 
primarily a Vector player - in Cinematic this combination is rather
weak, 
particularly against the Kra'Vak.

All of the above ships need to be escorted by either ADFC ships or
friendly 
fighters in the presence of enemy fighters, since their own anti-fighter

weapons range from non-existant to very weak.

 >Cutlass Class Destroyer
 >Mass: 30
 >HI: Avg    (9 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=6
 >FCS x1
 >Class 2 batt.- 3 arc	x3
 >Submunition Pack  x2
 >Cost: 100

Legal. Needs fighter escorts to fend off enemy fighters if it wants to
take 
full advantage of its thrust rating though, since both of the RWCN ADFC 
cruiser designs are thrust-4.

 >Buccaneer Class Destroyer
 >Mass: 30
 >HI: Avg   (9 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=4
 >FCS x1
 >Pulse Torpedo  x2
 >PDS x1
 >Class 2 batt.- 3 arc	x1
 >Cost: 103

Legal. Same comments about the P-torps as for the Cobra though.

 >Capit'an Class Light Cruiser

Legal.

 >Sloop Class Light Cruiser

Legal.

 >Gauntlet Class Escort Cruiser
 >(squadron anti-fighter/ anti-missile dedicated platform)
 >Mass: 60
 >HI: Avg   (18 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=4
 >FCS x1
 >Level 1 Screens
 >PDS x16
 >AFCS x1
 >Class 2 batt.- 3 arc	x1
 >Cost: 207

Legal. Note that this ship can only protect *one* other ship from enemy 
fighters or missiles each turn, since it only has one ADFC. Works well
to 
protect a SDN or similar (or against Phalons, where it could potentially

choose to protect the ship endangered by the largest number of plasma 
bolts), but it is no good for protecting a Hellfire squadron against
enemy 
fighters.

 >Fury Class Heavy "Strike" Cruiser
 >Mass: 80
 >HI: Strong   (32 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=2
 >FCS x2
 >PDS x1
 >Level 2 Screens
 >Salvo Missile Rack (ER)  x1
 >Class 3 batt.- 2 arc	x2  (F, FS/ F, FP)
 >Class 2 batt.- 3 arc	x3  (F, FS, AS/ F, FS, FP/ F, FP, AP)
 >Cost: 274

Legal, but... thrust-*2* in a "strike cruiser"? More like a system
defence 
monitor IMO!

 >Crimson Angel Class Battlecruiser

Legal.

 >Dark Storm Class Battlecruiser

Legal.

 >Dauntless Class Battleship
 >Mass: 120
 >HI: Super   (60 hull)
 >FTL
 >Main Drive: Thrust=2
 >FCS x2
 >PDS x6
 >Level 1 Screens
 >Class 2 batt.- all arcs  x7
 >Class 1 batt.- all arcs x1
 >Cost: 398

Legal. I wouldn't expect it to be very effective against the Kra'Vak 
though, at least not after the first encounter - with such weak main
drives 
it'll have serious difficulties to bring all those B2s to bear on the 
highly manoeuvrable Kra'Vak.

 >Revenge Class Dreadnought

Item:					Mass:	Cost:
 >Mass: 160				 -	 160
 >HI: Super   (80 hull) 		 80	 160
 >FTL					 16	 32
 >Main Drive: Thrust=2			 16	 32
 >FCS x4			 4	 16
 >PDS x6			 6	 18
 >Level 1 Screens			 8	 24
 >Pulse Torpedo - 3 arc   x3		 18	 54
 > (F, FS, AS/ F, FS, FP/ F, FP, AP)
 >Class 2 batt.- all arc   x6		 18	 54
 >Cost: 532
--------------------------------------------------
Total:					166	550

Illegal design; uses 6 Mass too many. Looks as if you forgot to pay for
the 
extra arcs for either the torps or the B2s (but not both).

 >Grapeshot Class Missile Carrier  (Super Dreadnought)

Legal design; could be dangerous to incautious Fleet Book-style humans
or 
(less likely) Phalons but provides only nice speedbump for a Kra'Vak
heavy 
taskforce. (See the comments to the time line above.)

 >Armiger Class Light Carrier

Item:					Mass:	Cost:
 >Mass: 150				 -	 150
 >HI: Weak   (30 hull)			 30	 60
 >FTL					 15	 30
 >Main Drive: Thrust=4			 30	 60
 >FCS x2			 2	 8
 >PDS x6			 6	 18
 >Level 1 Screens			 8	 24
 >Class 3 batt.- 3 arc	 x1		 6	 18
 >Class 2 batt.- 3 arc	 x3		 6	 18
 > (F, FS, AS/ F, FS, FP/ F, FP, AP)
 >Fighter Bays	x5			 45	 135
 >(Interceptor x2, Torpedo x3)
 >Cost: 665
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Total:					148

With a 2-Mass cargo hold the design would be legal.

Note: It is more useful to give the ship's NPV separately from that of
the 
fighters, since on occasion you may want to use different fighter loads 
than the one you've specified here.

 >Black Wing Class Fleet Carrier

Legal. The carrier's NPV is 650.

 >Man O'War Class Super Dreadnought

Legal.

 >Lame Duck Class Mine Layer

Legal.

Regards,

Oerjan
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
-Hen3ry