RE: (FT) small vs large ships, was YAFS

Oops, you're right.  I miscalculated the torps as being mass 3. (the
problem of not having FB1 at work. :)

The calculations were off the cuff, usually I take the time to find a
calculator and run the numbers properly, but the point of the exercise
was to show that the side that can concentrate greater firepower in a
local spot (or single ship in this case) will have the overall benefit. 
With one or two ships, it's difficult to concentrate firepower without
serious overkill.

The numbers are just straight firepower - obviously tactics can improve
or negate weapon systems, for instance if the larger ships take nothing
but Class 1 and 2 beams, the 10 x 20 Mass torpedo boats will win, since
they just stand off at 30 MU and fire at their heart's content. 
Conversely, a depraved indiviudal might create 2 mass 150 ships with
Thrust 8 and a couple of class 4 beams with 3 firing arcs. These cases
just highlight why there is a point system and not just straight mass is
used to balance fleets.

But as I mentioned in a different thread, a single points costs does not
accurately reflect the combat value of the system, only the POTENTIAL
value if used to maximum effect.  The question I think people really
should be asking is how to give a value to more intangible values, such
as range, differntial damage, and arc of the weapon (which are partially
based on the thrust value and turning ability of the ship) and perhaps a
more complicated formula based on the overall design as a whole should
be used, rather than a single plug and play modular format.

--Binhan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oerjan Ohlson [mailto:oerjan.ohlson@telia.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:37 PM
> To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> Subject: RE: (FT) small vs large ships, was YAFS
> 
> 
> Binhan, I've never seen you make this many trivial maths errors this 
> quickly before. What's up?
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >A 150 MASS ship would be facing a set of MASS 10 ships each 
> armed with two 
> >torpedoes
> 
> 1) 2 torpedoes = 8 Mass. 1 hull box is compulsory. That 
> leaves 1 hull box 
> for both FCS and engines... so either these Mass 10 ships of 
> yours have no 
> FCS, or they have no engines. If I were you I'd try arming 
> them with a 
> single torpedo instead :-)
> 
> >or twin needle beams
> 
> That's more like it. A standard Ash-Shaulah (N), this is.
> 
> >- 5 hits (60 needle beams, hitting on 6's = on average 10 hits then 
> >divided by 2 targets)
> 
> 2) Since the targets will get to fire before most of your 
> strikeboats can 
> do so, you're very unlikely to get 60 Needle shots. In my 
> experience you're 
> doing well if two-thirds of your boats get to fire in the 
> first attack run.
> 
> 3) Since these Needle boats only have a single FCS each they 
> have to fire 
> both Needles at the same target system, so you'll only kill 
> on average 4.6 
> systems per target ship, not 6... IF all of your boats get to 
> fire, which 
> as noted above isn't very likely at all.
> 
> >The other scenario is 60 torpedoes at short range
> 
> 4) The other scenario is *30* torpedoes, not 60. (If you 
> really do mean 60 
> torpedoes, your strikeboats either won't be able to fire due 
> to a severe 
> lack of FCSs, or they won't be able to get to range 6 or less 
> due to a 
> severe lack of main drives.)
> 
> 5) Again, good luck getting to range 6 without losing any of your 
> strikeboats to enemy fire. At that close range even the targets' PDS 
> systems are likely to kill one or two strikeboats.
> 
> >  (hitting on 1-5, or 83% with an average of 3.5 points per 
> hit for an 
> > average of 2.7 points per torpedo times 60 torpedoes = 162 
> points of 
> > damage the first turn.
> 
> 6) 83% * 3.5 pts per hit = 2.9, not 2.7; but since you've 
> only got 30 of 
> them to begin with and most likely have lost a bunch of boats 
> before you 
> get to fire you won't get anywhere near 162 pts of damage on 
> your first 
> turn of fire. If you're really good (or really lucky) you 
> might inflict 
> score 60 points, but even that is unlikely.
> 
> >Assuming medium hulls with 75 points of hull per ship both ships are 
> >completely destroyed with 12 points left over.
> 
> 7) Average hulls on a 150-Mass ship means 150*0.3 = 45 hull 
> boxes, not 75; 
> but that doesn't count any armour the target ship has.
> 
> Now re-run your analysis, but this time take into account that the 
> dreadnoughts aren't going to cooperate - instead they'll 
> attempt to stay 
> out of the strikeboats' (F) arcs, and they'll shoot at them as well. 
> Remember the initiative order - even when the boats win 
> initiative, only 
> two of them get to fire before the 2nd dreadnought fires.
> 
> Yes, 30 Mass-10 strikeboats *can* defeat a pair of Mass-150 
> dreadnoughts - 
> but they're by no means *guaranteed* to succeed.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Oerjan
> oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
> 
> "Life is like a sewer.
>   What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
> -Hen3ry
> 
>