Re: Classed Weapons was Re: Technology levels

Replying to several posts at once here:

Jared Hilal wrote:

>>>class 3 etc.  However, this is NOT done with other open-ended classed
>>>weapons, like the KraVak K-gun or the Phalon Plasma Bolt Launcher.
>>
>>Not true, at least for the K gun.  I've never bothered to work out the
>>calculations for the PBL.
>
>1-arc K-guns:
>K3 = 5 mass
>K4 = 8 mass (+3)
>K5 = 11 mass (+3)
>K6 = 14 mass (+3)
>
>and from FB2, pg. 9, right column, "Kinetic Guns (K-Guns)" Section, 2nd
to 
>last paragraph:
>"Larger classes of K-gun are possible, and the mass required rises by 3

>per additional class."
>So K-guns increase their mass /linearly/ at a rate of +3 mass/class.

The mass increases *linearly*, but it doesn't increase at the same rate
as 
the expected damage of the weapons. From class-3 and up, the Mass
increases 
faster than the weapon's expected damage; and from class-6 and up the 
larger classes' increased armour penetration isn't enough to compensate
for 
this. This is a deliberate feature of the K-guns, and it works to
restrict 
K-gun use to size classes 1, 2, 3 and 5; there are occasional uses of
size 
classes 4 and 6 as well, but class-7 and larger are very rare indeed.

In other words, "it" IS done with the open-ended K-gun sizes - not quite
as 
blatantly as with the beam batteries, but it is done nevertheless.

> From FB2, pg 36, left column, "Plasma Bolt Launcher" Section, 14th 
> paragragh (2nd to last):
>"A Plasma Bolt launcher system takes up a MASS of 5 times the class of
the 
>launcher."
>So PBL's increase their mass linearly at a rate of +5 mass/class.

This one is trickier, but there is actually a "restriction" of sorts for

PBLs as well.

The PBL *itself* increases linearly... but unlike virtually every other 
weapon type, you need one active FCS for *each* PBL you fire. IOW, in
order 
to fire 5 class-1 PBLs you'll need 30 Mass of equipment (5 PBL1s and 5 
FCSs) whereas if you fire a single class-5 PBL you only need 26 Mass of 
equipment (1 PBL5 and 1 FCS), so there is a mild but deliberate
incentive 
to use the largest PBL you can fit into the hull instead of using
multiple 
smaller PBLs. (The reason for this is of course that a single large
Plasma 
Bolt is both easier to degrade with point defences and able to cover a 
smaller area than the same total Plasma Bolt strength split up into 
multiple smaller bolts.)

***
>>Ever tried playing on large tables, where the B4 is able to pick those

>>B2-armed ships apart from outside their range? If you did, you might 
>>revise your opinion about the relative value of B2s and B4s :-/
>
>4' x 6' scrolling with cinematic movement and 1 MU = 1".

48 x 72 mu is a small table regardless of whether or not you scroll it, 
since even moderately-ranged weapons like B2s can cover a very large 
percentage of it (particularly if they're close to the middle of the 
table). No wonder if you haven't found long-ranged weapons particularly
useful.

As a comparison my old gaming table (prior to moving house half a year
ago) 
was 80 x 120 mu; when I finally build a new one it'll probably be 100 x
200 
mu or thereabouts.

>For ST:TOS and ST:movies based games, we routinely use class 4-6 
>phasers/disruptors & class 8-12 phaser cannon (on the Reliant / Knox)
with 
>1 MU = 1/2" and 6" (12MU) range bands for both beams and P-torps. But 
>these ships are not built with the FB system, rather converted from 
>semi-official and fan-based publications.

In which case you won't see the effects of the FB ship design system;
and 
once again you have weapon ranges which cover most of the table allowing

little or no manoeuvre outside the enemy's weapon range.

>One thing though, most of our setup falls into one of three general 
>categories:
>Side A in center of table, Side B starts from narrow table edge at med 
>(10-30) or high (30+) speed

Nice to see people flying at least reasonably fast :-) (Though I'm not 
*quite* as much of a speed freak as Brendan implied; for example I don't

think I've never flown thrust-2 ships faster than speed 36... <g>)

>Usually one side has a mission e.g.:
>exit opposite table edge to bombard planet or escape system
>ambush and destroy enemy fleet
>destroy enemy flagship/carrier/convoy
>By "exit" I mean "a full table-length from nearest pursuing enemy" with
a 
>scrolling table.

It is in pursuit battles like this the long-range beams really excel -
*if* 
the table is large enough to allow them to use their range. Sure, it
takes 
them a long time to whittle the enemy down... but if he can't reply,
they 
usually have all the time they need.

>So you are saying that on a larger (5x8, 6x10 ? ) table that:
>1x 3-arc B4 = 2x 3-arc B3 = 6x 3-arc B2?

Yes. Depends a bit on how you use them, of course - eg., I've never
found 
putting 2-arc B4s on a thrust-2 ship (the ESU Komarov) to be
particularly 
effective in Cinematic - but in the Cinematic battles on my 80 x 120 mu 
gaming table the ranges usually average 20-30 mu (including occasional 
short-range passes, but they usually only happen after several turns of 
long-range shooting). Short-range slugfests - multiple consecutive turns
at 
range 12 or less, ie. where B1s and B2s have the biggest advantage over 
longer-ranged beams - only occur when *both* sides want to close the
range 
or when the side that wants to close has at least 2 pts better turning 
ability than the other (eg. Kra'Vak vs. FB1 humans or FB1 NAC vs. FB1
NSL 
or ESU heavies).

Because of this, Cinematic battles between B2- and B4-armed ships on my 
relatively large table usually see the B2-armed ships taking enough
losses 
at longer ranges that when they finally manage to close the range the 
B4-armed ships are almost able to match their firepower up close - and 
since the B4-armed ships usually haven't taken much damage at this point
in 
the battle, the minor firepower advantage the B2 ships may have is 
countered by the B4 ships' higher remaining hull integrity :-/

***
>>The cost of a K gun doesn't increase the same way as beams, but
>>neither does the expected damage or the range.  A battlecruiser with,
>>say, B5 and thrust 8 will kill or drive off any KV ship and never get
>>scratched.
>
>In Cinematic or vector?

Doesn't matter.

>A) the only ship in either FB, except the SV, with T8 is the ESU Scout

So? There's no ship armed with a B5 at all in either of the Fleet Books,
so 
you're obviously talking about a custom design here.

>B) the expected damage increases much faster with a K-gun (up to class
6, 
>tapers off for +) than with a standard battery.

The expected damage per *weapon* is irrelevant; what is important here
is 
the ratio between the expected damage per Mass at the range you're
fighting 
and the expected damage per Mass your enemy can inflict on you at that
same 
range. If the enemy can't close the range and your weapons outrange his,

this ratio is zero to infinity in your favour.

>C) FB1, pg 12: Battlecruiser = TMF 80-110
>
>T8 = 40% TMF
>Average Hull = 30% TMF
>FTL = 10% TMF
>FCS = mass 1
>1-arc B5 = mass 16
>
>1x 1-arc B5 = (16 + 1)/0.20 = TMF 85, Hull 26
>or
>2x 1-arc B5 = (16 + 16 +1) / 0.20 = TMF 165, Hull 50 (medium
dreadnought 
>or small SDN)

Why are you wasting Mass on an Average hull? With those engines there's
no 
way any FB2 KV ships are going to get into K-gun range unless you let
them. 
Try this ship instead - it isn't quite what Laserlight had in mind, but 
this is what I'd use:

TMF 61
NPV 209
Hull integrity 6 (Fragile)
Thrust-8
FTL
FCS
1x B5-3 (AP/A/AS)

On a large enough gaming table and given enough time, this ship can wipe

out any FB2 Kra'Vak fleet which lacks sufficient fighter cover (more on 
this below). It is too fast for the FB2 KV to catch (their fastest ship
is 
thrust-6A) and it has twice the weapon range of any Kra'Vak ship; if the
KV 
attempt to pursue it it'll simply fall back before them shooting at them
as 
it goes until they run out of ships, and if they don't attempt to pursue
it 
it'll flit around their formation shooting at them until they run out of

ships. Either way, the Kra'Vak will eventually run out of ships :-/ IOW,
if 
the KV fleet doesn't want to get wiped out and can't accomplish its
mission 
before dying a death by a thousand cuts, it has no other option than to 
withdraw. In my book at least this qualifies as "kill or drive off" the 
Kra'Vak.

If the KV have enough fighters to cover all areas from which this
B5-armed 
ship could attack the fleet - IIRC you need at least 8 squadrons for
this 
in Cinematic; in Vector you shouldn't need more than 2 - then they'll be

able to hold the B5-armed ship at bay since it can't risk getting too
close 
to the fighters. They won't be able to *destroy* the B5-armed ship
(unless 
it screws up), but it isn't able to harm them either. If the Kra'Vak
build 
high-thrust ships of their own (thrust-10A armed with K-1 batteries, or 
something like that) then they might even be able to hunt the B5-armed
ship 
down, but those pursuit ships would take fairly high losses in the
process.

Regards,

Oerjan
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
-Hen3ry