Re: Islam was: 2nd and 3rd rate powers

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Atkinson" <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>
> > Side note: In fact over its history Islam as a
> > religion has been reasonably tolerant, at least towards the 'people
of
the book'
> > (Christians and Jews).
>
> Right.
>
> Then explain all the martyrs who died under Arabic and
> Turkish rule.  Should I start listing them?

No need to, I am quite aware of such instances - apparently you chose to
ignore my reference to bad examples in the past a few sentences later,
as
you have ignored my qualifications of the above statement.

This assessment certainly depends heavily on how you set your standards
for
religious tolerance.

I based my statement mainly on the fact that in Islamic countries,
Christian
and Jewish communities have survived from the conquest until now (or at
least into the twentieth century), complete with organized church
hierarchies and tolerated sites of worship. Certainly as low-status
minorities, but they survived.

Christians exist in: Syria, Irak, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, the
formerly
Ottoman Balkans and Greece. In Asia Minor, they survived until the
ethnic
cleansings of Armenians and Greek early in the 20th century. I am not
too
well informed on these events but believe that the motivation was more
ethnic/nationalistic than religious.

I am aware of Jewish communities in Morocco, Tunisia, (Muslim-era)
Andalusia, and Egypt

That they survived as commuities is more than you can claim about
Muslims in
Spain, Portugal or Sicily, or - for that matter - of Protestants in
Catholic
countries (until the 19th or even 20th century) or vice versa. Or of
Buddhists in Hindu India.

> > Forcible conversion of individuals is even
> > doctrinally frowned upon, AFAIK.
>
> That's not what the Koran says.

Which Sura and Verse, please ?

Like most religious scriptures, including the Bible, you can quote the
Koran
to support many points of view.
(For the text, see.eg.http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/index.htm )
E.g.

----
109. al-Kafirun: The Unbelievers
1 Say: O disbelievers!

2 I worship not that which ye worship;

3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.

4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

-----

Sounds quite reasonable, doesn't it ?

On the other hand:

-----

2. al-Baqarah: The Cow
6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not
it
is all one for them; they believe not.

7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes
there
is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

----------

Rather less nice. Though this ought at least to be qualified, in that,
from
the context of the others verses, I take it to mean 'They will burn in
hell'
rather than 'they will will suffer an awful fate at the hands of the
Muslims'.

Yet, in the same Sura, some verses later

-------

62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee,
Muhammad),
and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth
in
Allah[God] and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is
with
their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they
grieve.

-------

Hmmm, I see I'm getting carried away arguing off-topic points.

Greetings

Karl Heinz