Re: (SG II) Huh? One shot, mission kill wha?

The next episode of "One Shot, Mission Kill":
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Subject: Re:(SGII) Huh? One shot, mission kill wha?

Tom Barclay wrote:
> >I wouldn't buy the little
> >ARV because 1 rifleman could easily mission-kill
> >the vehicle (unprotected crew), but the other
> >products are realistic and very well designed.

David L. Dunn wrote in reply to Tom Barclay:
>Tom, the above statement you wrote to Chen-Song about the Badger MK I
and
>MK II, has had me a bit puzzled for about a week or so.
>From what I've gotten from the SG II rule book, (circa 1996), ...

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
That's because Tom is not talking about what you can do to that vehicles
in
any particular rules set.

He's talking about what would happen if a *real* vehicle looking like
your
ARV came up against *real* infantry armed with *real* rifles. In the
real
world, unprotected crew members (eg. tank commanders sticking their
heads
out a hatch) are quite easily killed or incapacitated by rifle fire.
Most
games do not reflect this fact.

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My rebuttal to Oerjan:

Uhhmmm....then what does your above statement have to do with
Chen-Song's original question and Tom's reply to it since neither of
them mentions the *real* world?

Chen-Song's full question to the list had been:
"Hi all.  I posed this question before, but I guess it got lost in the =
list being down and all.  I'm just wondering if anyone owns any of DLD =
Production's 25 mm resin vehicles?  Specifically I'm thinking of the =
Komodo APC and its derivatives.  What kind of quality do they have? =
(flash, bubbles, etc.)	How do they fit size wise with GZG figures and =
vehicles?  What kind of general comments do you have on them?
Any information would be appreciated, thank you."

The part of Tom's reply that I am defending was:
"I wouldn't buy the little ARV because 1 rifleman could easily
mission-kill the vehicle (unprotected crew), but the other products are
realistic and very well designed."

Since the Badger is a "fictional" vehicle, he couldn't have been talking
about a "real" one, because there is no "real" Badger vehicle.	When
Chen-Song was asking about how our vehicles were "size wise", and asking
about the quality compared to GZG's, I was under the impression that he
was asking based on a "gaming" point of view, not whether or not the
"real" vehicle would stand up
to "real" infantry, in the "real" world.  Of course the Badger wouldn't
stand up to a "real" infantryman.  It's made of resin! D'OH! :-o

The Badger vehicles are based on "real" world vehicles. Modified. With
tracks. I created them because I thought they looked kool, based on my 5
yrs experience as a 19D Cav Scout, and a 19E
Driver/Gunner/Loader/Commander.

However, if that's the case, someone should probably inform certain
countries that such "poorly designed" vehicles, are just not worth
it.....  For example:
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw010612_1_n.shtml
And let's not forget this one:
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news_briefs/jdw991222_06.shtml
(Above, compliments of Jane's)
Another example:
http://www.chenowth.com/alsv.html
Ah, now the Israeli's are good ones for making some pretty interesting
vehicles. I doubt they'd be inclined to agree that their "poorly
designed" vehicles are a bad idea:
http://www.isayeret.com/vehicles/raider/raider.htm
How silly, a one man vehicle like this:
http://www.isayeret.com/vehicles/guide.htm
He could get shot!

These are all "real" vehicles. They also have "unprotected crew".

I apologize to the list for my sarcasm, but this is about gaming, not
"real" world vehicles and such. There are no "real" grav tanks, nor are
there "real" superdreadnoughts in space. Power Armored suits?  Not. 
That's what our imagination is for. These are our hobbies. These are for
fun, and not meant to dictate whether a "real" infantryman can shrug off
a round fired from a 4.5mm
Gauss Autorifle with over/under 40mm grenade launchers, just because he
rolled a "5" on 1d6 for his armor, and the firer rolled a "4" on 1d12
for his impact value.

So, does this mean that people should not be buying tanks and other
vehicles for gaming, just because the commander or other crewmember can
stick his head out of the hatch?  They can be shot just as easily as a
trooper driving a Badger MK I.	Folks should be able to buy what they
want for whatever army or army style they want. The "real" vehicles are
just too darn expensive. And
most of us don't have enough room on the property to drive a company's
worth of tanks and APC's. :-(	   IMO, the Badger, (in game terms), is
a totally viable piece of equipment. In a Recon role, IMVO, it would
hold up just as well as any other "unprotected crew" type recon vehicle.

Late',
David
--
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David L. Dunn
DLD Productions
"Striving to Make Your Gaming Real"

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