Re: Framework of nations

At 11:17  16/12/01 -0800, John wrote:

>--- Derek Fulton <derekfulton@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > Great, John can count at least up to three, Korea
>
>How many more peace enforcement missions can you
>recall, where the UN told a nation, "Stop.  Or we kick
>your ass."  And then proceeded to kick their ass.

I'm sure the Chinese have their own opinion about kicking ass in Korea.

> > But the Balkans? Well since the US State
> > Department effectively torpedoed the a British
> > sponsored European peace
> > plan it's only fair you clean up your government's
> > mess ;) Sure the plan
> > probably might not have worked, but we'll never know
> > now will we.
>
>Funny, I thought the mess had been created and
>perpetuated by an ineffectual UN mission led by the
>Euros.  Yes, we told the people that created the mess
>that they would not have another go-around on making
>it worse.

I refer you to Karl's explanation :)

>Every single UN mission is dependant on US logistical
>support.

Really? are you sure? EVERY SINGLE UN peace keeping operation?

>   The only exception I can think of was the
>early phase of the East Timor mission where Australia
>unilaterally took matters into it's own hands until a
>UN operation could get off the ground.  Which I
>applaud--and point out that if regional powers would
>take care of messes in their back yards the US would
>have to do a lot less.

I wouldn't run around making such claims about messes too quickly, the
US 
virtually gave the big thumbs up to the Indonesian invasion and
annexation 
of East Timor and in doing so effectively put a stop to any foreign 
intervention.

> > and the US hasn't been a ideal example of a UN
>member > and no amount of apple pie and chest beating
>is going > to change that.
>
>Define "ideal".  No, we aren't ideal and damn well
>never will be.  I would not want to live in a nation
>that was an "ideal" UN member.

<Beth:> Sorry to but in here, and this can continue off list if anyone 
wants to answer me, but why? What's wrong with the principle? I'd be the

first to admit I have some pretty naive notions, but I don't think I'd
mind 
living in a nation which (a) could swallow its ego long enough to take 
orders from another nation if it didn't get to be boss hog this mission 
round, (b) really could share the Earth's resources the way try to teach

our children to respect and share their belongings, (c) really did care
and 
respect others and put out a helping hand regardless of who they were
and 
how scary it was getting. There is nothing in the principles listed in
the 
charter that I find reprehensible, supposedly its what many of us try to

achieve in daily life so why not at a grander scale?

What Beth said :) This can go off list, I have to admit I'm growing
tired 
of every time a UN or UNSC thread comes along, as sure as the sun comes
up 
in the morning. It degenerates into repetitive arguments about todays 
institutions rather than a constructive discussion about the bodies in
the 
GZG-verse.

>
>
> > How do we imagine that the nations of the GZG-verse
> > might be put together?
> > I think that how maritime empires from history
> > managed without the benefit
> > of radio or satellites is a good place to start.
>
>Indeed.  There will have to be a lot of autonomy on
>the part of local "viceroys" or "Governor-Generals" or
>"Exarch" or "Proconsul" or whatever.  Probably at this
>stage, you'd have planetary authorities with
>considerable autonomy in internal affairs selected
>from the local populace by whatever method is the norm
>(voting, or by the Soviet, or by shooting their way
>into the Planetary Leader's Palace, or whatever), plus
>a representative of the central authority with
>complete authority in matters of defense and foreign
>relations (power to order local military actions,
>negotiate cease-fires or local trade agreements, etc).
>  Plus the authority to drop the hammer on local
>authorities who decide to violate the laws governing
>the central authority (ie, if the NAC guarantees
>religious freedom, and a NAC colony started by
>seperatist Southern Baptists started opressing the
>Amish in the next valley over, the Governor-General
>would step in and resolve the conflict).
>
>As a side note, this leads to some interesting
>campaign ideas:
>
>Planet X is balkanized, perhaps between notional
>allies (NSL and NAC, FSE and ESU).  There are a lot of
>local frictions (perhaps over resources only
>extractable in a limited area, like a drug made from
>flowers found only in a certain mountain range).  One
>viceroy decides to launch a military campaign to
>secure these resources.  He _has_ to achieve a victory
>before the central governments can interefe.  They
>won't make him give back the mountain range and they
>won't smack his hands if he wins.  If he can't win,
>then his career is over.

Now this is more like it :)

Derek

Derek Fulton
12 Balaka st.
Rosny, Hobart.
Tasmania,  7018.
Australia

Phone; (03) 62459123
Mobile; 0438459123
Email; derekfulton@bigpond.com