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[OT] PanzerGrenadier

From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@q...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:30:46 -0500
Subject: [OT] PanzerGrenadier

by Avalanche Press.  Anyone played it?	Comments?
From - Wed Dec 05 17:35:53 2001
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:44:47 -0800 (PST)
From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Nobility.... or not....
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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--- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

> >  The SAS got smacked around by Iraqi
> > 3rd-line troops because of this attitude.  They
> > discovered that being SAS does NOT make them
> > bulletproof and that numbers do tell.
> 
> If you're thinking of Andy McNab and his lads, as I
> recall is was 8
> SAS for 250 Iraqis.  Although, given the comparative
> expense of
> training, supplies, etc, it may be that the Iraqis
> won that one....

And if you think Virginia rednecks can't get that sort
of odds, you're being a bit cheerful.  And the SAS
will run out of operators before we run out of
rednecks.

John


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 16:41:05 -0800
From: Jaime Tiampo <fugu@spikyfishthing.com>
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Inventions
References: <20011204230628.53673.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>
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Not that this is surprising but I have to disagree with our dear Mr
Atkinson. I've done quite a bit or research and where I maybe forgetting
a few things off the top of my head I can hope to remember some things.

John Atkinson wrote:

> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> > The Chinese ?
> > Paper, ink, the compass, blackpowder, rockets, silk,
> > real seaworthy ships,
> > oil-drilling, cast iron, printing...
> 
> 1)You can't give them credit for silk.  That's
> caterpillar stuff.  They were just lucky enough to
> live next to mulberry trees.

And they figured out that you can use the rediculously small thread for
stuff. I'd have to give them some credit on the manufacturing of silk
items.
 
> 2)Paper and ink I'll give them--although ink was
> developed by practically every culture on the planet.
> Even stone age Irishmen had ink good enough for
> tattooing.

And don't forget the printing press. 500 years before Europeans and it
was used extensively.
 
> None of the rest were ever (with the exception of cast
> iron) exploited.  They sort of put together a few
> prototypes, said "oh, what an interesting toy" and got
> rid of it again.  Whereas within 100 years of
> developing the stern post rudder, the magnetic
> compass, and practical firearms the Europeans had
> taken 2/3 of the world away from it's original
> inhabitants.

Ok, here's where Mr Atkinson gets techmological developement and common
use mistaken for military agression. First off, the Chinese were never
really a conquesting people. They got so far and stopped for two main
reasons. One, they weren't very good offensively with their military and
two, they came to the realisaton that if they conquered a place, they
had to civilise it. That's a big undertaking, teaching literacy,
economics, basic educational and technological steps. It just wasn't
worth the effort.

The chinese used the compass and their navy to expand trade routes via
water all the way to south africa. It just wasn't all that usefull to
them. When you're hundreds of years ahead of the rest of the world there
isn't must they can offer but raw resources.

As for gun powder, the reason europe could use it so fast was that they
got the recipe in its finished state. It took the chinese hundreds of
years to get it there. By the 11th century the chinese had hand
grenades, military rockets, both ground based for anti infantry and
seige, and naval for anti shiping.

What happened to really end the chinese lead is the mongols showed up
and sacked the place, ruled it for a bit and interupted social
developement.
 
When people say that if china was so far ahead, why didn't they rule the
planet instead of the europeans, it all boils down to, they had what
they needed and didn't feel that having to civilise the rest of the
world was their job.

Jaime
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From: "David Rodemaker" <dar@horusinc.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: Inventions
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:01:44 -0600
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> What happened to really end the chinese lead is the mongols showed up
> and sacked the place, ruled it for a bit and interupted social
> developement.

That and the fact that most of Southeast Asian culture is all dominated
to a
greater or lesser degree by Chinese culture. They also didn't have any
real
need to expand past Asia, the resource based was fine for thier needs.

> When people say that if china was so far ahead, why didn't they rule
the
> planet instead of the europeans, it all boils down to, they had what
> they needed and didn't feel that having to civilise the rest of the
> world was their job.

I don't know about that, I do know that when you look at land mass and
population base controlled the Chinese did an excellent job, and longer
than
most anyone else for a long time. (Now and then) Chinese cultural
minorities
moved outward from China and became everybody from the Thai to the
Hmong,
and there are significant Han Chinese minorities throughout SE Asia who
were
huge amounts of the merchant-class damn near everywhere.

That is incidently where defining China gets a bit problematic, are you
talking about just the Han? What about the Bai? Or any of the other
minorities? If you talk about 'China' you might also want to compare it
to
something like the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire; lot's of
people,
many cultures, many languages...

David

(Just has semester of this from my Anthro Prof. She's a SE Asia
expert...)
;-)
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:02:59 +1100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Derek Fulton <derekfulton@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: New baby girl and Re[2]: New baby girl
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G'day,

Just stealing Derek's email for a moment...

Simon wrote:
>More congratulations.	If it is not too late STOP NOW - don't have more

>than 1!!!

Oops....

To which Flak added:
>If you want one more, that ought to be okay.... but NEVER... EVER let
>yourself be outnumbered by your offspring...

Oops....

Oh well on the bright side at least we won't get bored... ;)

Thanks for thinking of us

Beth

Derek Fulton
12 Balaka st.
Rosny, Hobart.
Tasmania,  7018.
Australia

Phone; (03) 62459123
Mobile; 0438459123
Email; derekfulton@bigpond.com
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:15:31 +1100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Derek Fulton <derekfulton@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Inventions 
In-Reply-To: <20011204230628.53673.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>
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G'day John,

 >None of the rest were ever (with the exception of cast iron)
exploited.

So long as we completely ignore all the mathematical advances put
forward 
and exploited by people of non-European nations. The big name 
mathematicians you hear about in high school may well be French and
German, 
but a lot before and since was done by people from elsewhere in the
world.

Moreover, just because it didn't survive until today doesn't mean it
wasn't 
exploited/innovative. That's kinda like sticking to the now dying idea
that 
Columbus was the first European to land in the Americas.

Cheers

Beth (pretending to be Derek, just to fool you all.... )

Derek Fulton
12 Balaka st.
Rosny, Hobart.
Tasmania,  7018.
Australia

Phone; (03) 62459123
Mobile; 0438459123
Email; derekfulton@bigpond.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:16:32 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
Subject: SAS vs the N American Redneck/Hunter...
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At 3:44 PM -0800 12/4/01, John Atkinson wrote:
>
>And if you think Virginia rednecks can't get that sort
>of odds, you're being a bit cheerful.	And the SAS
>will run out of operators before we run out of
>rednecks.

Figure closer to 1 SAS to 10 Rednecks. Sometimes 1 to 1 in some cases.

And I'll wager a Daimler ferret that those rednecks can far outshoot 
those Iraqi troops far and above. Add to that they'll likely have 
just as good if not better field craft as the SAS in the woodlands of 
North America.

Turkey hunters armed with Remington 700's (hell, armed with 12 
Gauges) will likely make SAS operatives cringe when it comes to 
sneaking around in the woods looking for them. Consider that they are 
used to out witting game that can smell them up wind, hear them over 
a ridge or spot them wiggling the wrong finger.

The guys that Bow hunt deer would really get additional points too.

-- 
--
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From: Roger Books <books@jumpspace.net>
Subject: [OT] WWII rules?
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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Anyone have suggestions for WWII armour (1/300) rules?	We like
the alternating move style of DS, but nobody in my gaming group
is experienced or knowledgable enough to convert historical
WWII units to DS units.

Suggestions for Modern would be cool also.

Roger (So many minis...) Books
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Subject: Re: Questions before my rules even arrive, was: Needle fleet
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:32:52 -0500
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> I recall that everyone has pointed out how quickly small ships die
when
> they're sent into the fray.  Has anyone used the tactic of leaving
smaller,
> quick ships on the outer edge of a battle, equipped with longer
ranged
> weapons, to act as snipers while bigger ships slug it out up close?

The Islamic Fed has some DDs with Beam3's to hang around the fringes
and snipe, and of course there are the stingboats which carry salvo
missiles or whatever we're calling More Thrust Missiles nowadays.
Just make sure your opponent has some more pressing target that he has
to shoot at, as these die very quickly.

Designs on http://home.quixnet.net/~deboe/gzg/if/ifships.htm
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:52:20 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Needlebeam Fleet (was:RE: [OT] What mailing list is this
  again?)
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At 05:29 PM 12/4/01 +1100, you wrote:
>On Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:38 AM, johncrim@voicenet.com wrote:
>> Actually, I do havbe a topic that I've been wondering about: has
anyone
>made a serious
>> attempt to design a needle-heavy fleet?  When I get some spare time,
I'd
>like to give it a
>> shot and see how well they fare against more standard weapons.
>
>Using heavy and multiarc needle beams (from the WDA), should make it
almost
>feasable.  I haven't tried to do it yet myself, but a heavy needle (5
mass)
>forward + 2 offset multarc needles (3 mass each) on a heavy cruiser
might be
>workable.

I want to gve the standard systems a try first, but I'll be keeping
these
in mind.  I want to redo the the Illuminati fleet sometime soon, and the
ships are probably going to include the Illuminati Stealth System too,
so
they'll already be non-canon.

Which, I can't help but think, is exactly the way they should be.

Plus, I've got much better class names this time around, too.  The Rene
Magritte class cruisers, escorting the Marx Brothers class carriers....

John Crimmins
johncrim@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~johncrim
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:53:46 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] What mailing list is this again? moved on...........
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At 10:25 AM 12/4/01 -0000, you wrote:
>Well I did this with the bug figures I had designed. Which I mentioned
not
>for praise
>but for ideas (reading the Armalligator e-mails with interest).
>I believe you did respond to my original mail John and I did produce
new
>infantry
>and powered infantry. Ok so they are bigger versions of the normal
infantry
>but they are organic so powered armour units have just grown up more :)
>
>Tony has a picture of them up here
>http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Frames/New/Items/BUG-020.html

Oh, I like.  Oversized infantry seems to be perfect for these guys.  I
wish
I could justify buying Christmas presents for myself....  Ah well, the
holidays will be over soon enough!

Thanks!

John Crimmins
johncrim@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~johncrim
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Subject: Re: [OT] What mailing list is this again?
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At 10:15 AM 12/4/01 -0000, you wrote:
>[Jeremy- spelt properly said]
>> However as it
>> states in the rules, people are free to write their own history -
>including
>> expanding upon the canon stuff. So I guess trying to stop people
expanding
>> the canon is the same as stopping people expanding their own
histories.
>
>But this is my point, I'm guessing but the Fleet books were probably
the
>result of
>people pestering Jon for "Official" designs for the various fleets.
>I personally think that although yes I can come up with my own designs
and
>history,
>when there is an official background and designs (like GW do) people
don't
>like it
>when you deviate from them.

I consider the present debate to be pretty much on the same level as
watching the denizens of rec.games.miniatures.warhammer argue about what
color official Ultramine shoelaces should be....

("Blue!  And the aglet should be ten times normal size, and painted with
the unit marking and shoe size of the individual soldier!  Oh, and they
should have spikes on, too!")

...but marginally less entertaining.  I refuse to take my gaming that
seriously, by gum!  The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to
add the forces of the Free Station Of Ankh-Morpork to the Tuffleyverse,
too. 

But hey, it takes all kinds.  I like coconut, too, but what a boring
world
it would be if that were the only flavor available.

(This message brought to you be the American Non_Sequiter Society: We
don't
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John Crimmins
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Subject: Re: Questions before my rules even arrive, was: Needle fleet
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----- Original Message -----
From: Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: Questions before my rules even arrive, was: Needle fleet

> > I recall that everyone has pointed out how quickly small ships die
> when
> > they're sent into the fray.  Has anyone used the tactic of leaving
> smaller,
> > quick ships on the outer edge of a battle, equipped with longer
> ranged
> > weapons, to act as snipers while bigger ships slug it out up close?
>
> The Islamic Fed has some DDs with Beam3's to hang around the fringes
> and snipe, and of course there are the stingboats which carry salvo
> missiles or whatever we're calling More Thrust Missiles nowadays.
> Just make sure your opponent has some more pressing target that he has
> to shoot at, as these die very quickly.
>
> Designs on http://home.quixnet.net/~deboe/gzg/if/ifships.htm
>
>
I`ve tried some ideas stolen from starfire, using MT missile launchers
on
smaller units, but it all depends on the rules you use for MT missiles
(either they are useless, or nice and powerful. If the latter, PDS
becomes
very inportant).

BIF

PS-I use MT missiles moving just like fighters, but with more limits on
them.
From - Wed Dec 05 17:35:57 2001
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:05:37 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Needle fleet
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At 10:34 AM 12/4/01 -0500, you wrote:
>johncrim@voicenet.com wrote:
>>
>> Actually, I do havbe a topic that I've been wondering about: has
anyone
>> made a serious attempt to design a needle-heavy fleet?  When I get
some
>> spare time, I'd like to give it a shot and see how well they fare
>> against more standard weapons.
>
>I tried it once, and I got blown out of the sky. My ships were chewed
to
>pieces, and I couldn't knock out my opponent's systems fast enough to
make a
>difference.

I've been a thinnin' about making paired ships: One crammed fulla needle
beams, one with more standard systems.	Keep the two of them close
together, and see how things work out.

I don't know -- I haven't done enough playing of late, frankly.  To busy
with the real world, alas.  I have to run some more games, try a lot of
different designs, see which ones are the most fun to play.  Needles
just
seem like they could be very entertaining under the proper
circumstances.

John Crimmins
johncrim@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~johncrim
From - Wed Dec 05 17:35:59 2001
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:13:03 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: [FT] Needle fleet
In-Reply-To: <05b3bae34a.Charles@cableol.co.uk>
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>Well, back when the Sa'Vas'Ku giant cheese ship was being discussed, I
>did consider the following design:
>
>Mass 14 Fast Needleboat
>Fragile Hull (2 boxes)
>Main Drive 12
>FTL Drive
>Needle Beam (F)
>Fire Control
>TMF: 14
>NPV: 46
>
>The basic plan was a) silly, and b) illegal given the parameters of the
>scenario (maximum starting speed = 2x main drive), also c) doesn't work
>in vector :-) as it relied upon a 'feature' of cinematic movement.
>
>But, say about 6-12 of these backed up with heavier ships might work.

I think that there is certainly a place in FT for small unmanned drone
ships controlled by a single larger ship.  GW is doing something similar
with the Tau -- the big armored suits seem to controll two or three of
the
hovering gun drones, which strikes me as being a fantastically neat
idea.

Another idea to toss into the "someday" pile.  My, it's such a BIG
pile...here, maybe there's a space next to the "2001: A Space Odessey"
meets "Call of Cthulhu" RPG scenario....

>The other idea I've been considering was inspired by something from
>"Galactic Patrol", two main ship designs:
>
>'Catcher' aka Pursuit Cruiser: very fast, carries several needle beams,
>as much hull & armour as possible:
>
>Roll - 'catch' enemy ships & disable drive systems (could use the fast
>needleboats for this)
>
>'Mauler' slow, heavily armed with short-range weapons (B-1s & B-2s,
>possibly SMPs), again heavily defended - these then trundle up to the
>crippled ships and engage them at close range.
>
>This is probably a lot harder to do than it is for me to write :-)

I'd had similar thoughts, and I agree -- it's probably a lot more easily
said than done.

John Crimmins
johncrim@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~johncrim
From - Wed Dec 05 17:36:04 2001
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:21:20 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Needle fleet
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At 12:40 PM 12/4/01 -0800, you wrote:
>I have a destroyer designed for needle incursions.
>
>TMF: 32
>4 Needles (f)
>1 B2 (fp/f/fs)
>1 FC
>Trust: 4
>And sundry hull.
>
>The beam 2 was to give it something at 12-24mu. It doesn't really ever
>do anything. Usually they're going fast enough that the 12-24 band
>doesn't even occur. You need 3 needle beams to get a 50% chance of
>knocking out a system. With my rolling I need about 10. When you use
>small ships like this to go sniping they tend to die in droves. I think
>once, that my unit of 6 of the needle destroyers actually managed to
>cripple a ship. Instead of needle ships, I'd say you're better off
going
>with needle MT missiles.

Which brings up the question of "How many MT missiles have people
crammed
into a single ship, anyway?"  Enough of them being launched at once
could
put a really big hurtin' on a target, although I wouldn't want to be the
guy trying to resupply the missile ships afterwards.

The little ship is worth trying, though.  I have a large fleet composed
almost entirely of really small GW Tyranid ships, and most of the are
destroyer sized or smaller.  Hey, a new race!

"The Univeral Translator says that the closest English equivalent of
their
name is 'Death of a Thousand Cuts', Captain."

"Thank you, Mr. Schlock.  Ensign, bring me my brown trousers!"

What was that quote from _Excession_?  "A cloud of starships?"

John Crimmins
johncrim@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~johncrim
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From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <ML-3.4.1007515689.9383.books@jumpgate.jumpspace.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] WWII rules?
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:11:41 -0500
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> Anyone have suggestions for WWII armour (1/300) rules?  We like
> the alternating move style of DS, but nobody in my gaming group
> is experienced or knowledgable enough to convert historical
> WWII units to DS units.

I iimagine someone has done DS2 units for WW2.	If not, they should.
(I haven't because I'm not a gropo and I'm waiting for DS3, which is
no doubt due out right after FMA Skirmish, FT3, and Bugs Don't Surf)
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Subject: Re: [OT] What mailing list is this again?
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> ...but marginally less entertaining.	I refuse to take my gaming
that
> seriously, by gum!  The more I think about it, the more inclined I
am to
> add the forces of the Free Station Of Ankh-Morpork to the
Tuffleyverse, too.

Ankh-Morpork, Alarish, what's the difference?

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