Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)
From: "Jeremy Sadler" <webmaster@s...>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:59:55 +1100
Subject: Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)
> Of course, thinking about the different Uplift races... working them
into
> SG or FMA might work out alright, though minis could be interesting.
(Why
> do I always come up with SG/FMA scenarios when nearly all my minis are
There are a couple of seemingly Uplift "inspired" minis on the 100 Club
listing at Eureka... http://www.eurekamin.com.au
(I saw one "dolphin in walking harness")
JS
Jeremy Sadler
stargrunt.com webmaster
http://www.stargrunt.com
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:07 2000
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From: "Owen Glover" <oglover@bigpond.net.au>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:07:49 +1100
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Hi Andy,
The sample lists in the back of the rules actually give two options! I
think
it all depends on how your doctrine is played out.
For truly Mechanised Infantry, the APC should be part of the squad and
you
probably need a couple of house rules to work this effectively. We use a
modified Detachment Rule that gives the Det an autoamtic one Action
regardless of the distance from parent body; BUT detachments can only be
formed if for a "reasonable" tactical reason. The parent body can
transfer
one of its two Actions to the Detachment; this way both entities have at
least one action.(We play the game and discuss ANY sticking points
rationally and logically. If it gets to an ARGUMENT or heated discussion
then it isn't reasonable and don't happen!)
If the APC is simply a battle taxi then once the Infantry have
dismounted
then it is a separate unit etc.
That's our take on it.
Back to you.
Owen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
> [mailto:owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU]On Behalf Of Andy Cowell
> Sent: Wednesday, 6 December 2000 6:40 AM
> To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
> Subject: Mobile infantry in SG2
>
>
>
> I couldn't find it the other night while we were playing-- how do you
> handle dismounted mobile infantry in SG2? I treated the vehicle as a
> detached unit, which seemed to work okay, but I wondered what most
> people did, or if the rules covered it and I just missed it in the
> heat of battle?
>
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:07 2000
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From: "Jones, Tim" <tjones@adaptivebroadband.com>
To: "'gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:18:05 -0000
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:08:23 -0500
From: "Stark, Luke" <lcs@intonet.com>
Subject: RE: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
>I had planned on posting the design specification to the list/web and
asking
>for input.
I would restrict design sessions to the computer list - address at the
computer core
it used to be quite active but no one has any time left so it got quiet
if
we have
some new blood all the better.
>I had /not/ planned an AI. I do not wish to play this game alone. What
I
>enjoy most is the team play and community effect. I do not want to take
away
>from the community, so someone else can design that AI later, but I
have no
>interest in it.
I agree don't bother with AI in v1.0. Just hosting simple network games
with live players is what you want. Something like a FT version of
nettrek
would be what I would go for or something to play on the PC at home to
try
out designs and scenarios.
There have been a lot of attempts to do this in the past and nothing to
date has been released that is usable or used, just a word to the wise.
--
Tim
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:07 2000
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From: "Jones, Tim" <tjones@adaptivebroadband.com>
To: "'gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: FT: GZF format...anything use it?
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:21:01 -0000
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>I haven't seen anythig new using the GZF format release in the last
year
(at
>the Computer core at least) Am I mistaken?
nothing released, the new version of ftmap in development is using it,
and
several
people are still writing tools using it as I have had various questions
by
email
from them.
>Just wanting to know if GZF formats are widely used, or if it was a
good
>idea that didn't get much use (absolutely no offense to it's
designers!)
Not widely used, but it is a standard (as such) so why re-invent the
wheel?
The grand vision is for a suite of tools that interoperate using GZF,
its
still
a good idea.
__
Tim
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From: "Jones, Tim" <tjones@adaptivebroadband.com>
To: "'gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [FT] Can't access FT Computer Core
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:25:38 -0000
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>Style.css exists. GeoCities servers are case sensitive so if the page
>links to style.css or STYLE.CSS then it won't be found.
Thanks for the info. This gives a logical explanation to the
cause of the problem.
>It's a really stupid bug in Netscape 4.x that causes it display a 404
>error when it can't get a linked stylesheet rather than displaying
>the page without the styling, as common sense (and the relevant
>specifications) says should happen.
really dumb indeed
>I see that the reference to STYLE.CSS has been removed which should
>have solved the problems.
yup hopefully
>For complex historical reasons, Netscape 4.x also uses JavaScript to
>parse CSS which is why turning JS off solved the problem.
>None of the above holds for Netscape 6 or for any non-Netscape
>browsers.
This is what makes the world of web development such an interesting
challenge :-)
Thanks webspert
--
Tim
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From: "Claus Paludan" <cpaludan@worldonline.dk>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <B18DDC5F1158D311A66900805FD47181C89D0F@VSTASV1>
<001f01c05f62$75aa4260$0100a8c0@brodm1.vic.optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: Bridge Crew
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:32:40 +0100
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Oh bad thing happended to me!! I Actually deleted the post where the url
was! Would someone please post it again??
Sounds like a fun game!
/claus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Sadler" <webmaster@stargrunt.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Bridge Crew
> > Last time I played it was at Cancon '98, where we gamed out the
Seabring
> > Picket destruction from Honor Harrington. It was good fun.
>
> I played it YEARS ago at a Computer Swap Meet of all places, and
played a
> scenario where we were Kli - err, Xingons attacking a human convoy. We
came
> in fast cloaked, but the bigger of the two escorts detected us and
turned
to
> meet. He came at us at high speed, and everyone was waiting for me to
blink
> and turn - which I didn't. Just put pedal to the metal. Of course what
they
> forgot that in this game it takes TIME for the ships to slow and turn
> around... the big ship went screaming past, then the GM realised his
error
> and started his turn. By the time he got the big escort heading the
right
> way again, I was taking apart the convoy.
>
> Of course, I made my mistake then and hung around for too long,
instead of
> hitting and running... so the big escort took me to pieces. :(
>
> Great game though, really captured the atmosphere, especially with 6
or so
> people manning the bridge (there was me, my first officer <grin> who
> actually knew the game, and 4 crew.).
>
> Anyone on this list, if you've got enough friends with PCs and network
> links, I suggest you try it out.
>
> JS
> Jeremy Sadler
> stargrunt.com webmaster
> http://www.stargrunt.com
>
>
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:08 2000
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
References: <20001205191714.20278.cpmta@c008.sfo.cp.net>
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agoodall@canada.com wrote:
>
> Second, creating a computer game even for something as simple as FT
takes a l
ong time. Jon isn't a computer person. He'd have
> to farm it out. Would it have to look like current computer games with
3D ren
dered graphics? Or would it just be a "bare bones"
> thing? Regardless, it would be a very big project. It would need to
have exce
llent graphics to attract the non-FT playing
> mainstream. Without it, it would just appeal to us FT players and not
make ba
ck the money it would take to create it. Oh, and
> it would canibalize the miniatures sales (see the first point).
It depends what form the game took. If it was a straight, turn-based
conversion of the rule book, then yes it would harm miniatures sales
(for the reasons you outlined above for DBAOL) but I don't think it
would have any appeal in the mass games market. Turned-based wargames
are a niche market in computer games terms, and FT isn't big enough
(outside of this list) to sell on its name alone.
If (very hypothetically speaking) one went along the Heavy Gear route
and developed a game which used the core concepts of FT (ie it had
spaceships in it and was called Full Thrust) but dumped the game
mechanisms, especially the turn-based idea, then a decent game could
emerge. However, it would effectively be Homeworld by a different name
and many of the nuances that FT gamers love would have to go out of the
window. I suspect you might also have trouble selling the game to a
publisher unless you can think of a new angle that hasn't been tried
before. Even so, the project would end up being an 18-month,
seven-figure budget affair.
IMO you can't just port a turn-based wargame or boardgame directly to a
computer and make it a commercial hit. Exceptions such as Risk or
Monopoly succeed because they have a huge brand image already and are
able to trade on that image. FT (and almost all wargames except D&D)
aren't well-known enough in the grand scheme of things.
> Several people have done Play By E-mail games, me being one of them. I
have a
set of spreadsheets I used form my game. Even
> still, it was a fair bit of manual effort to make it work. I started
building
a program to handle the processing, and got quite
> far along with it, but lost the program in a move. I haven't tried
going back
and redoing it. The amount of time I spent on it
> tells me that it's not going to be feasible creating a program for
e-mail gam
es unless it's someone's labour of love.
It isn't that complex a game to implement. I tried doing a similar thing
for Aeronef (a set of Victorian SF rules for aerial gunboats) last year
and after a month of lunchtimes (around 20 hours work) I had the bare
bones working. FT would take a little longer but there's nothing
complicated involved from a programming point of view.
Tony
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Date: 06 Dec 2000 12:00 GMT
From: KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de
Subject: Cammo Web Site
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Hello Everybody
For those looking for inspiration for painting minis, especially
soldiers:
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/WorldCamouflage.htm
It's a sales website, but they have pics of just about every camouflage
uniform in use in the world today. Ever wondered what Indian Army Snow
cammo looked like ? (*)
Greetings
Karl Heinz
* well, white, of course
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:05:39 -0500
From: Jon Davis <davisje@nycap.rr.com>
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Subject: Re: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
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"Jones, Tim" wrote:
> I would restrict design sessions to the computer list - address at the
> computer core it used to be quite active but no one has any time left
> so it got quiet if we have some new blood all the better.
That list would be a good location for design review and requirements
discussion. Probably the rest of this message needs to head over to
the computer list, but....
> I agree don't bother with AI in v1.0. Just hosting simple network
games
> with live players is what you want. Something like a FT version of
nettrek
> would be what I would go for or something to play on the PC at home to
try
> out designs and scenarios.
>
> There have been a lot of attempts to do this in the past and nothing
to
> date has been released that is usable or used, just a word to the
wise.
Certain functions for an AI client would be straightforward for
individual
ship manuever, combat with energy weapons, and cinematic movement
options.
Fleet manuvers would require "squadron" AI. Effective use of fighters
and
salvo missiles would take more effort to write.
Regarding GZF
> Not widely used, but it is a standard (as such) so why re-invent the
wheel?
> The grand vision is for a suite of tools that interoperate using GZF,
its
> still a good idea.
The GZF has been helpful from a design vantage point. I think it would
be
a rather straightforward exercise to convert and update the GZF to an
XML
version. Parsing would be simplified immensely.
Oops... I mentioned parsing. Time to move this to the computer list!
Has the computer list been archived like the GZG list?
Jon
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:31:00 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Aaron Teske <ateske@HICom.net>
Subject: Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)
In-Reply-To: <3A2DC337.3060003@ice.net>
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At 10:40 PM 12/5/00 -0600, Noel Weer wrote:
>Realistically, Star Wars is a great story backed by strong visual
>presentation. The Postman, Uplift, etc. are great books. For pure fun I
>take the former, but I have a greater respect for and spend more time
on
>the latter.
Sometimes it takes a bit too much time; I need to re-read the first two
books of the second trilogy, 'cause I can't get into the varying
perspective stuff right off the bat with the third book. So much to
do....
>As for an Uplift conversion. Start with the books for flavor but check
>out the GURPS Uplift supplement. They are fairly brief, but the base
>GURPS rules are there regarding space combat and some of the more
exotic
>devices Brin provides: Reality Anchors, Probability weapons (nasty,
>nasty toys these), antiparticle beams,...
Main problem: I don't *have* the GURPS Uplift supplement; I didn't hear
about it until it was already OOP, and none of the several games stores
I've dropped by have it or think they can get it. (Though I did pick up
Discword and New Sun. ^_^ ) Now, I will admit (having just thought
about
it) that I haven't tried ebay, but does anyone know the book is at a
store
near them, and can pick it up for me? ^_^
Thanks,
Aaron
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From: "Bell, Brian K" <Brian_Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:23:57 -0500
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I was confused at first by your rules. But now I think
that I understand.
My original reading had me adding all the velocities to
the actual Salvo movement. But in stead, you are adding
a new element to the SM attack: Attack Velocity.
Attack Velocity is figured from launching ship's
velocity, the movement of the salvo (after inertia),
target velocity, and distance to the target after
ship movement.
I think that you need step 1.5: Determine course and
velocity of salvo (measure from firing ship to salvo
marker; place the marker facing the nearest clockface
to the course it took).
In #2, is the clockface from the target's facing, the
target's course, or what reference point to determine
clockface? This seems to break if the salvo is overshot
(i.e. placed behind the target on a head-to-head attack).
In your head to head example, it works as you presented
if the FSE and NSL ships are 41" apart at the start,
but not if they are 38" apart at the start (in either
case the salvo is still 3" from the target, just
behind the target instead of in front of it). In this
case the Attack Velocity would be 16+10-12+3=15
Perhaps it should be:
Course Divergence between salvo and target (in clock
facings; determines Attack Velocity):
0-2 Subtract target velocity from salvo velocity
3-4 Use only salvo velocity
5-6 Add both target and salvo velocities
Add Terminal Distance (distance from salvo to target
after ship movement) to Attack Velocity.
Using this the head to head case would result in an
Attack Velocity of +26+12+3=41
I would suggest using absolute value of Attack Velocity
in your calculations (as it is possible to be negative).
Your method solves the chase problem, but adds a new
problem that SML ships must limit their speed to be
effective (this seems contrary to the design philosophy
of the FSE). Also, the opponent can change your
efficiency just by increasing speed.
-----
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org
-----
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Izenberg, Noam [SMTP:Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:35 PM
> To: 'FT List'
> Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
>
> I haven't been reading this thread until the last digest or two, so
> please,
> please forgive, and/or ignore me if I'm covering trampled ground. But
I do
> think I have at least a start for a workaround of SML range and
possible
> fighter range issues. SMLs first.
>
> This sounds a bit complex at first, but I think should execute pretty
> simply
> in 4 steps. I hate added complexity, but think this may really be
> workable.
>
[snip]
> Fighters next:
>
> For fighters, I lean towards "fixing" them by giving them vector
movement
> at
> all times.
>
[snip]
> I'm sure there are some holes in these ideas, though I hope they are
> reasonable first cuts. Please poke away.
>
> Noam
>
>
>
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:11 2000
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From: "Izenberg, Noam" <Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu>
To: "'FT List'" <GZG-L@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Question that may be really *old*...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:53:40 -0500
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> > "Stark, Luke" wrote:
> > >
> > > Is Play-by-Email an option for you?
> > >A number of us on the list do
> > > that...[snip]
> > >
> > Sadly, no. I'm a bit more instant gratification than that. ;)
> >
> > -L
> Noam, what was our record in the recent PBEM you ran? An hour or so?
As I recall, we churned out two complete turns in one work day. I
processed
one over lunch, I think, and the other in bits and pieces over an hour
or
two. the speed depends entirely on the players and GM. Most multiplayer
games operate on one turn/week, but if it's just two gung-ho players and
a
GM, a turn every day or two is imminently practical.
Noam
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Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
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Hi Beth!
NI>>This sounds a bit complex at first, but I think should execute
pretty
simply
NI>>in 4 steps. I hate added complexity, but think this may really be
workable...
BF> Have you actually tried it out? Does it play as easily as you
expect?
Right now it's vapor ware only. I'd like to playtest it however to see
if/how it works.
> I know I've only had a quick glance, but it does sound like you've
got to
>keep track of a lot of things if you've launched a lot of missiles. I
often
>launch 10-20 SMs if I launch at all, in larger games I'll be launching
30+
> (I think my record so far was 100 at once).
That would be much harder to track, however, in the shower this morning
I
thought of a simpler way of determining Attack velocity. You need to
keep
track of the start point of your missiles/fighter groups. The salvo/FG
component of the attack velocity is the total distance between the start
point and the base of the target - i.e. forget adding up all the
vectors.
The clock facing of the attack is the direct line from the start point
to
the target, so that line will determine the head-on/orthogonal/chase
direction for the total Attack Velocity. The total AV can be written on
a
scrap of paper next to each salvo or FG, as it is determined, for
tracking.
For a couple tens, it seems workable to my mind. A hundred may get way
bogged down, but then you're not likely to launch 100 salvos with AV's
in
the 60's.
>OK I am a bit of a stacker
>rather than a net-maker, but even so keeping track of that many start
>points, target distances, velocities sounds like an awful lot of work
to me
>(seeings as I mostly get to play on Friday nights when my brain is
frazzled).
Could well be. This may only be practical for smaller fights. The proof
is
in the fighting, though. Too bad we're half a world away. (Though this
might
also lend itself well to (at least playtest) by PBeM).
> Nice thought though (I've been thinking about something similar for
> collisions and ramming)
The ideas evolved from ramming/boarding rules used in a PBeM I was in
not
too long ago. (No one actually successfully rammed, and boparding wasy
way
tricky, but it was a nucleus)
>Noam then went onto outline some fighter rules:
>>To engage any target - including other fighter
>>groups, the attacking fighter
>>AV has to be less than 42
>So I take it you're not going to see any dogfights first turn after
launch
>unless the ships are less than about class 2 range apart, either that
or
>your fighters spend ages chugging into battle - I guess people who play
at
>higher speed could up the dogfight AFV though.
Yes.This is one of those things that would need to be tweaked by
playtest.
Fighters would also likely have a harder time engaging in cinematic than
in
vector - maybe adding CEF would balance that.
One possible solution is to allow "passing attacks" if the AV is higher
than
the max required for engagement. Reduce the number of dice in the attack
by
1 for each 6" or part thereof above the max AV. So two fighter groups
closing head-on at 24" each (AV 48) could each make passing attack at 2
dice
less.
Another Idea is that if a figher reaches a target with its normal move,
but
the AV is still too high, it could apply it's reaction move to "break to
engage" This would result in the fighter group not moving on the board,
but
reducing the AV (and the group's speed) by up to 12.
In the example above if Group A spends a CEF to break to speed 12, the
AV
for both groups is now 36, and they can both engage full attacks. Next
turn
the furball drifts 12" in B's direction of travel (Direction determined
by
A+B's vector, speed determined by the slowest of A or B.).
Noam
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Subject: Re: Question that may be really *old*...
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***
> I saw a series of articles, later collected in a book, on the
algorithms
> for just such a simulation, in Interface Age, I think a US magazine,
in
the
> mid-to-late '70s.
"Starship Simulation" by Dilithium Press.
***
Bang on. But, the question still stands: is it Bridge Crew? ;->=
The crazed second part of my dream was, using the inherent networking in
our university VM system, was to hook up two opposing bridges at two
locations...
What can I say? I was young.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:11 2000
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Subject: Are decals possible? Re: Cammo Web Site
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>Hello Everybody
Hi, Karl.
>For those looking for inspiration for painting minis, especially
>soldiers:
>http://www.tridentmilitary.com/WorldCamouflage.htm
At first, I thought this was one that had been mentioned before, but I
erred. Most kewl, and some of the pics are near good enough that someone
could cut-and-paste, and, with the right printer, make cammo decals for
DSII vehicles. I wonder if anyone's listening? ;->=
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
From - Wed Dec 06 17:42:12 2000
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Noam replied to Beth:
> Could well be. This may only be practical for smaller fights. The
proof is
> in the fighting, though. Too bad we're half a world away. (Though this
might
> also lend itself well to (at least playtest) by PBeM).
Hey! I have two prior claims on Beth's playtest time. Wait till she
gets
done with CanAm and "Are single-arc weapons better than triple-arc".