Re: [SG2] [DS2] harmonizing vehicle construction

Barclay, Tom wrote:

>Oerjan makes good points. I agree with his comment about things like
>GMS, HMG, and similar systems taking up "real" space and their >ammo
taking up real space. In that sense, maybe it is SG2 >construction that
is flawed - one could argue from ground mount rules >that such weapons
take a space and I could argue from construction >rules that GMS/L
takes two spaces. 

>But GMS/P in SG2 terms is a personal weapon.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear here. Quoting the previous posts:

>>> [Tom] A GMS/P? Doubtful...
>>
>>[me] Again yes. IMO the GMS/Ps are included in the IAVR category in
>>DS2.

What I meant with "Again yes" was "yes, I agree again", not "yes, it'll
take up extra space too". If I had meant "yes, it'll take up extra
space" I would have protested against the line 

>>> [Tom]	GMS/P	gunner		1

later in the post :-/

>And ammo for vehicle or personal weapons is never even touched on (I
>consider it a nit-pickers shortcoming). 

Ammo for vehicle weapons is already included in the capacity
requirement for the weapon; same for the
 
>I question Oerjan's comment about heavy weapon crews. Will they get
>smaller? Maybe. I know people in some sectors want them to.

There's a pressure on the industry to design the heavy weapons for
smaller crews, with the implied threat "if you don't do this we'll buy
from someone who will instead". It might go out of fashion, but somehow
I doubt it.

>But if ammo is the big space problem, how can two guys carry >enough?

Define "enough". If you're a GMS crew, 2-3 shots is all you can expect
to get away with before someone calls in artillery on you.

>And if the weight of the system is a problem, how do you fix that?
>Lighter metals... maybe.

Why "metals"? There are plenty of alternatives.

>I believe people have tried this with some KE weapons and have found
>that if you make the basing too light, the kick just throws them about
- 

If the basing is a human shoulder or arm, a heavier weapon will be more
accurate (assuming the same weapon quality), that's true. If OTOH the
basing is a mechanical structure (bipod, tripod, whatever) standing on
the ground, the design of the basing is at least as important as its
mass.

>Will an HMG get much lighter? Perhaps. But maybe not until portable
>grav units help anchor it. Any thoughts on how the recoil and ammo
>size/weight issues will be addressed? 

Quite a few of them. Unfortunately they're mostly classified -
particularly the ammo size/weight ones :-(

>I guess although Oerjan has it right that DS2 is better because it
>assumes some systems have space requirements (LADs, GMS/L,
>APSW/HMG/AGL), where I find the system interface with SG2 is weak >is
that all rifle squads (3 man or 5 man) take up the same space. For >DS2
this is fine... but those extra guys matter in SG2 terms. 

Which is why your previous suggestions on space requirements for men
and equipment seems like a pretty good idea.
 
>And maybe vehicle ammo for GMS, HKP and other ammo using >systems (or
fuel weight for those running other systems) should be an >issue. 

Only GMSs and some SLAMs use ammo where one round is a similar size as
the weapon (launcher). For other weapons size is still an issue, but
not on the same scale - eg., modern tanks tend to carry 30-50 120 or
125mm ("HVC") rounds, compared to 50-80 rounds of 105mm ammo in the
previous tank generation. The modern tanks need to resupply more often
than the older ones, but they still have enough to last them through
one fight. 

IOW the ammo storage for (non-GMS/SLAM) weapons will matter in a
campaign situation, but for single battles the standard size of the
(non-GMS/SLAM) weapons can safely be assumed to include "enough ammo
for the battle".

'Course, some designs - eg. the Merkavas - can remove a large part of
their main gun ammo in order to carry other cargo (eg., infantry or
casualties). If they do this they *are* likely to run dry if they get
into a serious fight.

Later,

Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry