Prev: Re: Retrograde skirmishers Next: Re: The interception challenge

Re: SV: [FT] FB2 Torpedo Fighters (was Fighter customization)

From: Kevin Walker <sage5@h...>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:37:58 -0500
Subject: Re: SV: [FT] FB2 Torpedo Fighters (was Fighter customization)

on 6/16/00 14:02, at wrote:

> i.e. a surviving standard fighter squadron will inflict at least 2.8 *
> damage, as opposed to the torpedo bomber quad at 15.

I'm personally not convinced that your measuring of expected damage
from 6 turns of firing (all CEF used for fire) of a standard fighter
squadron against the single turns firing of a torpedo squadron is a

Each person has their own experiences, however I have yet to see many
fighter squadrons not expend a CEF or three for secondary movement
in their combat life.  Besides, with the extra vulnerability to PDS fire
it's likely that some will not survive to fire again.

The cost for each fighter group not only includes the cost of the
themselves but the cost of the carrier they base off of.  For simplicity
I've only roughly factored in the cost of the mass and cost for the
bay needed but also the mass and cost for the appropriate increase they
cause for the FTL and MD factors (ignoring at this time the cost of the
shields, cloak, reflex field, etc.)

For a speed 4 carrier its about 44 points.
For a speed 2 carrier its about 41 points.

For the sake of argument let's assume the following instance:  no
definition (PDS fire carries over), no fighter morale (which would hurt
standard fighters more), no extra CEF expenditure for secondary moves, 2
groups of fighters (1 normal, 1 torpedo armed) each up against a Maria
Burgund Battleship with no support.  There are 18 fighters for 177
((18+41)/6 and 13 torp fighters for 167 points ((36+41)/6).

Reg. Fighters vs Torpedo Fighters
18 fighters
Turn 1:
PDS (avg 3.2 kills)  15 left
avg damage done    12 (tot 12)
Turn 2:
PDS (avg 3.2 kills)  12 left
avg damage done    9.6 (tot 21.6 -1 PDS)
Turn 3:
PDS (avg 2.4 kills)   9 left
avg damage done    7.2 (tot 28.8 -1 PDS)
Turn 4:
PDS (avg 1.6 kills)   8 left
avg damage done    6.4 (tot 35.4)
Turn 5:
PDS (avg 1.6 kills)   6 left
avg damage done    4.8 (tot 40.2 -1 PDS)
Turn 6:
PDS (avg .8 kills)   5 left
avg damage done    4   (tot 44.2)

The MVB is in bad shape but it also killed 13 fighters worth 39 points
(fighter cost only here).

13 torps fighters
Turn 1:
PDS (avg 3.2 kills)  10 left
avg damage done    25 (-1 PDS)
Turn 2 / 3 / 4:
gone back to carrier and returning (note I've taken 1.6 fighters off for
chance of not being able to re-launch as per FB2 - normally squadron by
squadron but in this case...)
Turn 5:
PDS (avg 2.4 kills)  6 left approx.
avg damage done    15 (40 tot -2 PDS)

The MVB is in bad shape but it also killed 6 fighters worth 36 points
(fighter cost only here).

There were a number of approximations made to take away fluky die roll
still count the chances in (thus the accumulated fractional damage,
accumulated fractional fighter loss of effectiveness).

In the end 177 points (hull & fighters) of normal fighters did 44 points
damage in 6 turns loosing 13 fighters (39 points).  167 points of torp
fighters did 40 points of damage loosing about 6 fighters for (36

I favored the normal fighters on most of the issues as carrier cost are
probably a bit more.  The dropping of fighter morale helped the normal
variety more than the torp fighters as does the no CEF secondary move.

Each of these types will have a advantages over others when employed in
roll they are designed for.  Normal fighters will have a significantly
better time against opposing fighters, torp fighters disable their
faster with a little less loss.  Torp fighters also cut through the
ships much faster (the armor penetration is only midly useful against
cruisers but more so against Phalons).

A lot of this will depend on tactics thought.  Using escorting fighters
soak off the screening defending fighters will make a difference.   As
overwhelming the target.  It only takes approx. 22 torp fighters to
(avg) the MVB in one turn while it takes nearly 61 normal fighters to do
assuming a loss of 3 fighters during the attack.

> If there are enough fighters to attack repeatedly, this can still add
up to
> a lot of damage.  Yes, bombers will do damage faster (depending on
house rules
> about how long it takes to reload them).  However, fighters will do
> damage (while, yes, taking more losses to their own numbers) that it's
> questionable whether it's worth the +18 cost to arm your fighters as
> instead, especially when you take the dogfighting weakness into

But it's more difficult to get all those fighters to attack repeatedly. 
enemy can reinforce the target of the fighters attack and potentially
the fighters to burn up CEF in secondary moves to continue to attack the

Play style and house rules are going to effect the value of each type of
fighter - however IMHO the torp fighters are appropriately balanced
considering the "standard" rules portfolio and over a fairly broad range

> My end point, thus, doesn't change:  there's a lot of options that a
> force can throw, but all regular fighters is the one with the highest
> offensive and defensive firepower at the least cost, that leaves you
with the
> least risk of getting caught in a bad position if your enemy doesn't
> the kind of fleet at you that you expect them to.
> If you can trust that you'll have fighter superiority, then sure, you
> give some serious thought to using torpedo bombers.  That, I'll most
> agree with.

If you factor in the cost of the ship hulls needed to carry the fighters
don't believe the regular fighters come out costing less.

The risk of being "out guessed" is always there with ships, fighter
and fighter assignments.  Having superiority is not always necessary for
making use of specialized fighter - assigning them to the appropriate
positions and tactical use is as or more critical.

Although this has nothing to do with the issue above I often find it
challenging to use items like torp fighters at times when it seems
or impossible.	Sometimes it's possible to catch an opponent flat footed
when you have a torp fighter group in with a number of regular fighter
groups especially if the enemy doesn't know what type of fighters they
until he/she has scanned them successfully.

Kevin Walker

Prev: Re: Retrograde skirmishers Next: Re: The interception challenge