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Re: FB2... hmmmm...

From: stiltman@t...
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: FB2... hmmmm...

> wrote:
> >>>Well, beam fighters do 4 26/36 points of damage per six dice to
> >>>unscreened ships, 3 26/36 points to level 1, and 2 26/36 points to
> >>>level 2.

> >>Unless you have modified the re-roll rules (to not re-rolling
> re-rolls
> >>that come up with a "6"), the correct values are 4 4/5, 3 4/5 and 2
> 4/5.

> >4 2/3, 3 2/3, and 2 2/3 then, isn't it?  4 out of 6 on the rerolls?
> Yes, true. I don't see where you get the 26/36s from... stop after two
> re-rolls, or something?

No, it probably was a misnomer that I put that there... it's
26/36... not sure how the infinite series of the reroll probabilities
out... :)

If the infinite series resolves to 4/5, okay, it's 4/5.  :)

> >We haven't found that to be a serious problem against slower moving
> >ships... parking and spinning typically allows slow ships to deal
> >fast ones fairly well, enough that the extra guns and passive
> >they carry will make the difference.
> As long as you guess right, it can work. It's all those other times
> when guess wrong you get fried <shrug>

Well, if you're cutting in on a turn, there aren't _that_ many arcs in
cinematic that you can follow.	You take half your turn at the
the other half in the middle.  If you're going a given direction, all
got to do is eyeball a path you can take to me and, if you cut in, I've
got all my guns pointed against all of your guns.  If you don't, my guns
will probably still be pointed in the right general direction, you might
have yours spread out a bad way.  It's not _that_ hard to spin to keep
your guns pointed at someone else, no matter how fast they're going.

> [On killing fighters]
> >Oh... perhaps I should clarify a point here then.  Not only do we
> >fighters to recombine at will and don't use morale rules, we _also_
> >allow just about anything shooting at fighters to carry over excess
> >losses.  With 40-odd groups and 90-odd things shooting at them on the
> >board we don't like to do a lot of individual group math.  Just roll
> your >dice, total it up, we take off as many groups' worth as you
> killed.  When >it's all one monolithic group attacking a phalanx
> anyway, I find the group >divisions rather artificial in more ways
> just fighter morale and >recombining groups.	Perhaps that dilutes
> their advantage a bit.
> Against Scatterguns/Interceptor Pods, it dilutes them a fair bit
> (increases average fighter losses by about 22%). Against PDSs the
> effect is negligible against full-strength squadrons; it only matters
> if the individual squadrons are depleted (which they never are in your
> battles).

Actually, I think it would matter a fair amount, because lucky dice in
set of point defense rolls won't get wasted, either.  Sure, on average,
guess it wouldn't matter that much.

> >She didn't do a terrible amount of maneuvering... she didn't think
> >could keep her guns pointed at me better than I could guess where to
> >put the plasma, so she just took a dead man's charge.
> With the emphasis on "dead", yes.In short, she didn't use her
> maneuvering advantag at all, allowing you to concentrate all the
> in one blast. Too bad for her, particularly if you had the PBLs spread
> out in the way you describe below.

*shrugs*  I don't see that the spread is that bad.  It can put 32 dice
them in its forward arc, 24 in each side-forward arc, 16 in each
arc.  If I spun, it wouldn't be that hard to keep these focused in the
general direction either.
> >>BTW, which fire arcs do you suggest for the various 1- and 3-arc
> >>weapons on the dreadstar, and how fast would you fly it?

> >L = forward/port
> >M = forward
> >R = forward/starboard
> >The (currently still somewhat experimental) version I've got has the
> 4->die plasma bolts at 2L/4M/2R, the 10 class 3's are at either
> 2L/6M/2R >or 3L/4M/3R, the needles are all M.

> OK, good.

Am debating a few tweaks... maybe upgrade it to thrust 2, maybe drop the
needles for some class 4 beams (maybe go to a 3xCL4, 9xCL3 config and
the needles) or class 1's, maybe add some more PDS, maybe take off a few
plasma bolts for more of some other form of weapons (such as downgrading
it from 32 to 30 dice)... the FB1-only version looked about like this:

Mass 1200

Hull/Thrust/FTL:  Same

Armor (85)
FireCons (13), ADFC

Nova Cannon
Fighter Bays (45)
Class 3 beams (10)
Class 1 beams (25)
Needle beams (15)
PDS (~20)

The newer one dropped some armor, the ADFC (how often is it going to get
used? :), some of the fighters, the class 1's, and some of the PDS to
the replacement of the nova cannon with the plasma bolts.  I'm not sure
like the result I've got; the backup beam armament might have taken a
too much of a hit there, although the plasma bolts _are_ undisputably
powerful than the 25 class 1's... though I'm not sure that the armor
also suffer a little too much and its ship-to-ship range is now a bit
with the plasma in place of the nova cannon.  Yanking the needles in
of class 4's would rectify that to a fair degree and help it zone off
board a bit better.

> >It's designed based on a fixed-edge, cinematic background.

> I've always found the concept of "fixed edges in space"...
> "fascinating" is probably the nicest word I can think of :-/ (And no,
> the game - particularly the Cinematic game - isn't "obviously
> for fixed-edge tables as you claim in your reply to Noam; at least not
> the FBxs...)

Well, the commentary that the higher beam classes are less
seems to imply it to me.  They might not be if you just crammed on scads
of engines and high class beams.  Although if you could catch the ships
in question, I suppose they still are... I don't know.

I guess we've just always done it that way and never had it occur to us
do it any other.  It's worked.	*shrugs*

> Does this mean that you do sit it in a corner so it can't
> be outflanked, or do you risk advancing it out into the middle of the
> table?

We tend to start our games with the ships about 12 MU in from either end
of our playing area, flying directly at one another at a modest cruising
speed of our choice.  I just usually choose a fairly slow cruising speed
to keep the battle at long range (i.e. where the fighters are more
than ship-to-ship weapons) as long as possible.  In truth, I actually
not flown this thing in a game other than the playtest last night with
wife (in either version) since the fleet books came out, although its
predecessor in FT2 generally ruled the battlefield on the various
when I brought it out.

> >I'd probably keep the thing flying pretty slowly so that it pretty
> >park and spin.

> OK. This means a maximum speed of 1, 'cause otherwise the Kra'Vak will
> be able to outflank it.

I started at 2 last night.

> <chuckle> Once the plasma's burned down my scatterguns, you are most
> likely out of dreadstar - and you're definitely out of fighters.

I wouldn't put the fighters into action until I'd gotten at least one
with the plasma.  It's only going to take one to reduce the scatterguns
to a low enough level that the fighters can shred you.	Either that, or
you won't survive the plasma hit itself.

> At the
> very least it should be down to its last few hull boxes <g> We'll see
> how I fare tomorrow.

Hard to say.  I tend to be pretty good at flying my styles of ships...
your guys are used to speed freakishness they might not do as good a
(I probably ought to try playing your style with a few ships, though...
once we exchange a few designs I can adjust yours so they'll survive a
fighter assault in my games and try 'em out a bit...)
 The Stilt Man
   < We are Microsoft Borg '98.  Lower your expectations and	>
   < surrender your money.  Antitrust law is irrelevant.	>
   < Competition is irrelevant.  We will add your financial and >
   < technological distinctiveness to our own.	Your software	>
   < will adapt to service ours.  Resistance is futile. 	>

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