Re: do GMS/P troopers carry ARs?

"Glover, Owen" wrote:

> Well, I guess this is going to be another one of the agree to disagree
> situations.

    I think it's a bit too early to call it a game.  We're just getting
started.  I want to hear more of what you have say and I want to hold my
arguments up to closer scrutiny.  In the split fire argument, I started
somewhere in the middle, but moved to one extreme after some thought.
In the M113 discussion, I moved from leaning one way, to leaning a bit
more another. <g>

> I believe that when Suppressed the squad DOES go to ground....that's
> what suppression is all about, quineg?

    I think that suppression is a number of things, only one of which is
actually going to ground.  It could simply be staying in place and in
cover.	The fact that a squad can reorganize while suppressed is a
strong argument for the fact that they've not simply gone to ground.
They can move about freely within unit integrity, which is not, by
definition, going to ground.

> Exchanging kit especially if you have to grab extra ammo or specialist
> equipment can actually take a considerable amount of time....if an
> Activation is approx 5 minutes then an Action is reasonably argued to
> be 2 and a half minutes...that isn't really very long at all..ever
> tried clearing a double feed on a machine gun? It can take a minute of
> two in itself...getting kit off a body that has been blasted can be a
> very messy thing, clearing the weapon, checking ammo feeds etc WILL
> take time....

    That's why you still roll the dice the next time the weapon fires.
A low roll could indicate a slight weapons malfunction, such as a jam.
My point is, SGII is far too granular to REQUIRE such a long time to
pick up a weapon from a fallen comrade and fire it.

> >"We don't know that he doesn't have an assistant gunner at his side."
> and we don't know that he does; as weapons get smaller lighter etc the
> need for an assistant may no longer be valid...sighting systems mean
> that they no longer need to spot etc.....thsi can be a WHOLE thread in
> itself

    Assistant gunner or not, someone nearby is going to grab a useful
weapon.  And you can't have it both ways, you can't argue for a heavy
weapon that takes time and effort to ready and then turn around with the
lighter weapon argument. <g>  If the weapon is heavy, he's gonna have an
assistant gunner.  If the weapon is light, it's not going to require the
great deal of time that you're arguing.  Either way, the assistant's
only job isn't to spot or replay orders, he also is going to keep the
pig fed.

> ....and the last one may have been a typo on your part but a Re-org is
> one Action only and as I said earlier it will be approx 2 and a half
> minutes.

    No, I'm counting the average time to use BOTH the remove suppression
and re-org actions.

> The time thing is something I'm always uncomfortable with too. Jon
> states in his rules that he doesn't like to put a fixed time limit on
> a game turn and mentions 1 minute and a few minutes. Then we say it
> can take up to 5 minutes and then we all start quoting 5 minutes. I
> really think Jon T didn't really want to get pigeon holed with a SET 5
> minutes turn yet now we all argue it is a gospel fixed time span.....

    Yes, it is gospel, according to St. Jon, chapter 2. <g>  Seriously,
it's in the book as the average.  Now, I don't think that every action
takes 2.5 minutes.  It's simply the average.  But we've got to start
somewhere.  We're trying to create a game that simulates the combat
we've seen in films, on TV, in literature, or some other imagined
universe.  The rules didn't dodge the issue and tell us that each turn
is 8 centons or 42 microns. <g>  They offer the average, and each action
must reasonably fit into that average.	Sometimes the action will
realistically take a great deal longer, and sometimes it will take a
great deal shorter.  But the average remains.
    This is another reason why I argue against the extra re-org action.
No one is talking about the procedure of picking up and using a weapon
lasting over 5 minutes.  However, we can all imagine a guy dropping a
conventional SAW and having his buddy pick it up and start firing within
a few seconds.	If the average is some kind of arithmetic mean or
median, that little scene I described would cancel out dozens of time
when it would take 5 minutes to get the support weapon going, and would
create an average closer to 2.5 minutes.  Thus, the remove suppression
action would be more than enough to cover the average.	Let crappy die
rolls simulate the times when it takes longer.	Heck, the sergeant
blowing his remove suppression roll could indicate that the squad
refuses to move until PFC Gonzalez gets the IPG back on-line. <g>

-Mike

--
Michael Sarno

http://vietnam.isonfire.com
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skirmish wargame of infantry combat in Vietnam 1965-1972

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