Re: Round II: Rifles

On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Thomas Barclay of the Clan Barclay wrote:

> Hmm. If I were fighting in Alberta on the flat with no air, arty,
> whatever to cover my advance, I'd agree. Studies have repeatedly shown
> most engagements are fought in the 300-500m range which is what the
new
> weapons are designed for. Warfare is often NOT static and therefore
> these long range shots just don't happen so often. Not never, just not
> as often.

True, how ever many of the kinds of situations like this could apply to 
SG games on small backwater worlds where the only artillery support is 
the one from the DD you depolyed from in orbit. Your Company is all that

there is for the mission. A militia with good long arms and lots of
reach 
could get dicy. Far flung deplyments don't have assets to burn. A Big 
campaign with lots of logistics backup yes. There have been enough 
battles in RL where the logistics weren't there to allow for a Fire 
Mission against every 2 yokels on the hill above your position.

> ** Can't say as I have. Though I think the C7 was fairly durable. I
> wouldn't advise ANYONE to use a rifle as a hammer. That's why they
> invented bullets. While your BA guy might have to buttstroke me during
> close assault because his 8 round mag is empty, I still have 22 rounds
> or more to share with him. He winds up to buttstroke me, I shoot him.

I think Hand to Hand is quite an often occurance in the Urban 
enviornment. I'd love to track down some after action reports from 
Chechniya. 

> ** Or do they have shorter RB with the same weapons? What you are
> arguing for is the divorcing of marksmanship from unit quality.

True. funny thing is, given todays marksmanship training, I'd expect a 
out in the bush Militia unit to be more proficient range wise than your 
average US army unit. My impression of US army tactics is that the 
infantry MOS's are there to spot for artillery and use the support
assets 
more. Not that using the support assets are bad, trouble is when they 
aren't there...

> ** Since I mentioned the BA marksmen, it should have (I thought) been
> obvious I was referring to the standard squad weapon. NO ONE is using
> the BA as a primary arm. Any the reliability issue is going away with

OH, granted. 

> some of the modern semi-autos. They are as reliable as BA according to
> some organizations who use sniper weapons regularly - police,
military,
> paramilitary. Though some purists still stick to the BA.

Though, I think the afgans were giving the russians hell last decade 
with Enfields (made in Kashir), AK's and DSK's. 

> ? Cut what? I think if you're talking about a company, I'd better have
> more than that. I deploy something like a GMS (point, click, and
goodbye
> target) with an anti-personel warhead if I want to kill you out beyond

Funny the use of GMS's to take out targets like M2HB's was a topic of 
conversation on a news group a while back. There was a quesion of cost 
value of the M2HB compared to the Milan missile it was destroyed by. 
Naturally the troops aren't going to worry about that in the field, but 
if they are on a limited supply deployment, you better hope the Militia 
units don't have some armour later on (if you use all your GMS loads on 
bunkers and snipers). 

> rifle range. Or I call for my support. I'm sure I can construct equal
> scenarios where a force with bolt actions will be totally FUBAR. As a

Oh, true. However, the Germans cleaned our clock more than a few times
in 
local battles on the infantry level with Mausers and a HMGs. We only
beat 
them because we could throw so much more into the fray. One interesting 
cevat to that is the Germans seemed to orient their infantry around 
supporting the MG. The Squad leader was with the MG42 (or 34) even on
the 
advance. Our methods were the opposite, the Browning or BAR's supported 
the guys with the M1 Garands (arguably the first battle rifle).

> business entirely. The AR isn't some sort of cruel hoax perpetrated on
> the military! It's a very effective weapons system that addresses the

Well, not now that its major bugs have been fixed. 

> MOST COMMON stituations. Should you keep around some snipers with BA
for
> longer ranged issues? Yes. Should you realize you're deploying guys
with
> ARs into the desert where they'll be outranged by the locals? IF your
> intel is any good - obviously. Then you'd better have air, arty, or

The SEALS and SAS in Desert Storm were armed with M14's and FALS, not 
M16's and SA80s.

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- Ryan Montieth Gill	  NRA / DoD# 0780 (Smug #1) / AMA / SOHC -
- ryan.gill@turner.com	    I speak not for CNN, nor they for me -
- rmgill@mindspring.com 	     www.mindspring.com/~rmgill/ -
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